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Saddam has left the building
Eclecticonaut
Elite Ranger
in Zocalo v2.0
According to Reuters, Saddam Hussein's long awaited execution by hanging was committed just about 45 minutes ago.
[url]http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-12-30T032335Z_01_IBO034602_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ.xml&src=122906_2234_TOPSTORY_saddam_executed[/url]
Symbolically at the same time the late president Ford's body is celebrated(?) at Washington D.C. One era has truly come to it's end. Another begins.
Any suggestions, how things will develop from now on?
[url]http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-12-30T032335Z_01_IBO034602_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ.xml&src=122906_2234_TOPSTORY_saddam_executed[/url]
Symbolically at the same time the late president Ford's body is celebrated(?) at Washington D.C. One era has truly come to it's end. Another begins.
Any suggestions, how things will develop from now on?
Comments
Mission Accomplished, guys.
[B]BBC World just announced that a video compilation of the hanging ceremony and the three hangees is to be shown on Iraqi television at 9 am local time (6 am GMT or an hour from now). It can't take long to convert and transmit it over the internet... [/B][/QUOTE]
Classy. :rolleyes:
Don't get me wrong, I think Saddam was scum. With that said, public executions are barberic. One would think we would have progressed beyond that after the days of the "wild west". Guess not.
I switched the channel when the broadcast started, I don't really need to see a hanging during the Christmas and New Year's celebrations.
A prime example of a case when news stop being news.
Telling us that the execution was performed is news, but showing us the execution isn't.
Reminds me that I don't really like infotainment. I do like documentaries though, and there is a difference.
Not, of course, that this is what you'll get on Fox. They'll broadcast it as a snuff film while Sean Hannity masturbates to it. At least we can all rest easy. War's over, guys. Let's go home.
Yes, the United States killed him. But since I am reverently against this stupid war, and didnt think we needed to go in at all, I did not kill him.
Was he a bad guy? Yes
Did he need to be removed from power? yes
Did we have to do it this way? No
You dont give that sort of person even the dignity or respect of a trial. His guilt was determined long before his capture. You don't give him any more attention than is required to remove him from any active participation in the future.
Saddam was given more "justice" than many of his victims. His deeds were not limited to the last gulf war, that's why Iranians and Kowaitis mostly supported his execution. Not sure why the Lybians are mourning his death though... unless it's some way of protesting against the West again. Lybia even went so far as to claim that he should have been tried by an international court. I don't know if that would have made a difference as to the outcome.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B] [i]We killed this man[/i]. You have a responsibility to see fully what you are responsible for and watch a man die. It strikes me as supremely arrogant and foolish to attempt to hide behind a thin veil of civility because you simply find your own barbarism too uncomfortable.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I disagree, and who is this "we" I keep hearing about? I will neither share nor accept any responsibility for the acts of certain governments. You can't place everyone in the same basket.
"He" brought a lot of this onto himself by being a bully in the gulf region and causing a lot of suffering long before the first US tanks landed in Kowait.
[B]"Kowaitis", "Lybians", "Lybia", "Kowait". [/B][/QUOTE] Where are all those typos coming from?
And I have to agree with Arethusa - placing your trust in the mere crumbs of information that the mainstream media is providing and not wanting to see what really happened is as self-protective as stupid too.
For example, [url=http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=38e1076b19]this video coverage[/url] just shows that a rope was tightened around the man's neck, but not used.
Well you know what they say, Power Corrupts...
Now that Saddam is Dead, perhaps we can focus on the REAL war on terror, and find the real bad guy, Osama.
[B]Now that Saddam is Dead, perhaps we can focus on the REAL war on terror, and find the real bad guy, Osama. [/B][/QUOTE]
I hope this is sarcasm.
[B]Where are all those typos coming from?
[/B][/QUOTE]
Perhaps because they aren't typos in other languages? But you did understand the sentence, right?
You just have no imagination. :D
Now that Saddam is Dead, perhaps we can focus on the REAL war on terror, and find the real bad guy, Osama. [/QUOTE]
We get rid of the real bad guy in January 20, 2009.
Hopefully that day will give me more reasons to be happy than the events occurred today.
No offense, but was this really the point of Iraq war? Is it over now?
[B]Actually, its spelled Q8. :p [/B][/QUOTE]
:D
See, it's not so hard once you start trying, m8. ;)
He has more than enough blood on his hands to earn the punishment.
Yeah, maybe America is evil and all that stuff, but you didn't see those other countries around about lift a finger to intervene, and who was it that requested help from America and the rest of the world to remove him the first time?
I think if anything the USA is guilty of dropping the ball the first time by not nailing his ass back in 1991.
But I'm sure I'll be getting a lot of flack and backlash for my opinion.
[B]No offense, but was this really the point of Iraq war? Is it over now? [/B][/QUOTE]
I thought the original point of the war was to remove Saddam from power, which we did in the first 3 weeks of the war,
I'm not sure what the rest of it was about, it was a waste of resources, if we had put that much effort into finding Osama, we'd have him by now.
Iraq is a lost cause, its like VietNam, it's an unwinnable situation, "A Strange game, the only winning move is not to play"
[B]
I think if anything the USA is guilty of dropping the ball the first time by not nailing his ass back in 1991.
But I'm sure I'll be getting a lot of flack and backlash for my opinion. [/B][/QUOTE]
NEGATIVE!
You want to shift that blame to the United Nations. Officially, what occurred in the first Gulf War was once Kuwait was liberated, the UN made the decision to not remove Saddam from power.
The US Military was in full march to Baghdad with orders to locate and capture Saddam and his top military aids.
The UN made the decision that the fight was over. Our political leaders argued the point that the mad despot should be removed from power, but in the international court, they lost.
[B]Just because a person is from the United States, do not assume that we all think, act alike.
Yes, the United States killed him. But since I am reverently against this stupid war, and didnt think we needed to go in at all, I did not kill him.
Was he a bad guy? Yes
Did he need to be removed from power? yes
Did we have to do it this way? No [/B][/QUOTE]
Man, I'm an American, born in California and living in Connecticut. You're a citizen as much as I am. I'm as much opposed to this war as you are, possibly even moreso, but we, as a nation, killed him. This isn't even really my opinion on capital punishment. This is about bearing witness to what we [i]do[/i], no matter how ugly.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
[B]He should have been shot once his identity was confirmed, shot and buried in secret, perhaps even a field cremation and his ashes spread.
You dont give that sort of person even the dignity or respect of a trial. His guilt was determined long before his capture. You don't give him any more attention than is required to remove him from any active participation in the future. [/B][/QUOTE]
What a great fucking idea! Let's execute him without a trial and bury him in a field to save the Iraqis from being executed without trials and buried in fields! Or better yet, let's give him a joke of a trial where the judges are replaced (or killed) regularly and his defense team assassinated, and then let's pretend none of that happened.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i]
[B]Well, I guess it's a matter of either accepting capital punishment or not. Two wrongs don't make a right but I can imagine the survivors can find some comfort in this.
Saddam was given more "justice" than many of his victims. His deeds were not limited to the last gulf war, that's why Iranians and Kowaitis mostly supported his execution. Not sure why the Lybians are mourning his death though... unless it's some way of protesting against the West again. Lybia even went so far as to claim that he should have been tried by an international court. I don't know if that would have made a difference as to the outcome. [/B][/QUOTE]
Perhaps not the outcome, though Milosevic was given a life term, so Saddam may have received too. The main issue that he might actually have had a fair trial instead of the ironically Kafka-esque treatment he received.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Stingray [/i]
[B]I disagree, and who is this "we" I keep hearing about? I will neither share nor accept any responsibility for the acts of certain governments. You can't place everyone in the same basket.
"He" brought a lot of this onto himself by being a bully in the gulf region and causing a lot of suffering long before the first US tanks landed in Kowait.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm guessing you're not an America, but did your country send any forces to the coalition? Not that that's really necessary. I'd just as well argue that as a human being, you have a responsibility to bear witness to our shared ugliness and to not turn away because it is uncomfortable to see.
Of course he was a monster. Perhaps only a minor one dressed up for America's political exigencies when the PNAC guys needed someone to kill publically to make a point, but he was still a terrible person. I don't think there's much question that he [i]deserved[/i] to die. But as Zlata Filipovic said of Milosevic, "he was just a man." When you kill someone, it's a lot easier when you can pretend you are supremely virtuous for it.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Entil'Zha [/i]
[B]The funny thing is, when Saddam first came to power in the 60's and 70's, He appeared to be exactly the type of leader we wanted in the region, He Abolished Sharia (Islamic Law), He provided free Education, focused on Iraq's infrastructure, created a good healthcare system.
Well you know what they say, Power Corrupts...
Now that Saddam is Dead, perhaps we can focus on the REAL war on terror, and find the real bad guy, Osama. [/B][/QUOTE]
Saddam was a thug from the moment he took power. That's [i]why[/i] we were happy to work with him in the first place, just Pinochet, Noriega, etc. He [i]was[/i] exactly the type of leader we wanted in the region. We only started hating him when he disobeyed orders in 90-91.
Iraq wasn't even that poor until the Iran-Iraq war depleted it enough that Saddam started considering a quick landgrab to help his economy recover. And, hey, look, Kuwait's small. No one'll mind if I take that, right? The following UN sanctions are what basically destroyed the country and made it what it is today. Hundreds of thousands died under that, but no one paid attention.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]Yeah, maybe America is evil and all that stuff, but you didn't see those other countries around about lift a finger to intervene, and who was it that requested help from America and the rest of the world to remove him the first time?
I think if anything the USA is guilty of dropping the ball the first time by not nailing his ass back in 1991.
But I'm sure I'll be getting a lot of flack and backlash for my opinion. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, we did back his regime for years and we had the military power to take him out again. They asked for our help because they knew that we knew he was threatening our interests in the region. It never was an ethical issue.
We didn't nail his ass in 91 because it didn't suit our interests to do so. Containing him fostered a mild degree of instability in the region while leaving it secure overall, and invading further would make a giant mess out of things. Which, I would note, is exactly what fucking happened.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Entil'Zha [/i]
[B]I thought the original point of the war was to remove Saddam from power, which we did in the first 3 weeks of the war,
I'm not sure what the rest of it was about, it was a waste of resources, if we had put that much effort into finding Osama, we'd have him by now.
Iraq is a lost cause, its like VietNam, it's an unwinnable situation, "A Strange game, the only winning move is not to play" [/B][/QUOTE]
The original point of the war was the remove Saddam from power and kill him, dismantle his state, and erect a quisling pro-America, pro-capitalist government as a display of American military and economic might in the region, and in the process, to make a pile of money. The PNAC papers pretty much spell out the entire Bush administration agenda. Suffice it to say that those plans are meeting with unforeseen complications.
Finding Osama was never really a major priority beyond PR purposes and a few half assed CIA operations. The Bush administration is focusing on Iraq because Iraq is where its interests lie. We got what we wanted from Afghanistan: that is, namely, a secured major oil pipeline and an aass kicking, dick rocking, America fuck yeah victory, followed by some stuff that no one's going to pay attention to and Afghanistan is fine and full of freedom guys ok yeah.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by SpiritOne [/i]
[B]NEGATIVE!
You want to shift that blame to the United Nations. Officially, what occurred in the first Gulf War was once Kuwait was liberated, the UN made the decision to not remove Saddam from power.
The US Military was in full march to Baghdad with orders to locate and capture Saddam and his top military aids.
The UN made the decision that the fight was over. Our political leaders argued the point that the mad despot should be removed from power, but in the international court, they lost. [/B][/QUOTE]
There were a lot of factions in American politics at the time. A lot of the people who wanted to get rid of him then are in the whitehouse now. Bush Sr, however, had no interest in getting rid of Saddam and had never intended to follow through on his promises to the Kurds. To simply blame the UN is rather specious history.
[B]I really disagree with everyone who doesn't want to see this. How much you may or may not dislike him is irrelevant. [i]We killed this man[/i]. You have a responsibility to see fully what you are responsible for and watch a man die.[/B][/QUOTE]
[i]I[/i] don't have any responsibility to watch. [i]My[/i] government had the balls to say "no" when pressured to join in on the invasion (which is ironic given that our Prime Minister is a woman).
[B]Arethusa , You ever considered a job in politics? [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah. Kind of. In high school, I considered politics and was, to put it mildly, rather idealistic. But the more I learned, the more I became disabused of the illusions and myths that clothe the American political system and power structures. I suppose I may yet be very political, but likely moreso in the tradition of Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Edward Said, etc; I can't say I see myself ever being a politician.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B][i]I[/i] don't have any responsibility to watch. [i]My[/i] government had the balls to say "no" when pressured to join in on the invasion (which is ironic given that our Prime Minister is a woman). [/B][/QUOTE]
You don't in the same way Americans (and, perhaps to a lesser extent, Britons and other members of the American coalition), but I would, separately, argue that you still do. This is somewhat separated from politics and really has more to do with my personal feelings on issues of human responsibility to bear witness, but I still think it's important. Another thread, maybe.
Taking bribes and murdering little children in my basement for my demonic rituals in order to achieve an eternal life as a vampiric creature.
Rethorical skills don't make a politician, as this current administration has proven. So practicing argumentation in forums doesn't really help.
So we can all stop disagreeing now. :D
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i][B]I'm guessing you're not an America, but did your country send any forces to the coalition? Not that that's really necessary. I'd just as well argue that as a human being, you have a responsibility to bear witness to our shared ugliness and to not turn away because it is uncomfortable to see.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Nobody's perfect, I'm green, you're purple, or perhaps, I'm purple and you are green. But the way the game is played "we" (as in the West) are indeed all in this together and as far as I know my country placed its share on the table as well.
I didn't think it would be such a hard concept to get that maybe some people are not in the mood to watch an execution during the holidays. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I should let events (like the execution of a now irrelevant tyrant) that don't really concern me take hold on my life and make me crawl under my pillows and have a good cry every single day to atone for the sins of the leaders of our world. :o
Seriously, it makes no damn difference.
You could make the same argument for not reading any news or paying any attention to what's happening in Iraq or Darfur, because, seriously, it makes no damn difference. I cannot agree with that.
[B]Nobody's perfect, I'm green, you're purple, or perhaps, I'm purple and you are green.[/B][/QUOTE]
You're black and orange. It says so, right under your name.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]You don't in the same way Americans (and, perhaps to a lesser extent, Britons and other members of the American coalition), but I would, separately, argue that you still do. This is somewhat separated from politics and really has more to do with my personal feelings on issues of human responsibility to bear witness, but I still think it's important. Another thread, maybe. [/B][/QUOTE]
I originally had a whole response to your other line about needing to watch it as a human being typed up in my other post, but in the end decided it wasn't worth trying to argue against your personal belief. I don't need to watch a video of Saddam being executed to be aware that it happened and why.
There is a large area of grey between being ignorant of what goes on in the world, which is what you are implying many people here are because they don't want to watch a video of the execution of Saddam, and burying yourself in all the horrible stuff that goes on. Neither extreme is beneficial.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Arethusa [/i]
[B]You could make the same argument for not reading any news or paying any attention to what's happening in Iraq or Darfur, because, seriously, it makes no damn difference. I cannot agree with that. [/B][/QUOTE]
Curiously, I haven't seen anyone argue for that in this thread so far. Stop trying to equate not wanting to watch a video of an execution with being completely ignorant of all that happens.
"Hang man, Hang man, wait a little while..."
;)
In RE to Arethusa...
There's a big difference in my reaction to Saddam's final fate and the rest of the mess in the Gulf.
Perhaps Arethusa, you should look into being a Baptist minister. The guilt card seems to appeal to you...
:)
[B]You live in this world and are inextricably a part of it. It'll be a cold day in hell before you convince me that willful ignorance to preserve your sense of comfort is anything but insidious and ultimately damaging.
You could make the same argument for not reading any news or paying any attention to what's happening in Iraq or Darfur, because, seriously, it makes no damn difference. I cannot agree with that. [/B][/QUOTE]
Arethusa, while your on your high horse, do you have any suggestions about what to do about Darfur? and how it wouldnt be a mess to intervene in some fashion?