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Just published in science magazine

croxiscroxis I am the walrus
[IMG]http://graphics10.nytimes.com/images/2006/08/14/science/sciencespecial2/15evo_lg.jpg[/IMG]
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Comments

  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    Why is it always "do you [i]believe[/i] in evolution?" as if it's another religious belief?
  • because it still takes a great deal of [i]faith[/i] to belive that we evolved from animals?
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    The question has nothing to do with evolution, but the origin of man...

    the poll is irrelavent to the question...

    Say for example that man was a lab creation by aliens of joining earthly creatures with alien creatures...

    :alien:

    :p
  • Lord RefaLord Refa Creepy, but in a good way
    Funny... The countries with the lowest belief in evolution are the ones I wouldnt want to visit either.
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    Define faith.
  • Lord RefaLord Refa Creepy, but in a good way
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by croxis [/i]
    [B]Define faith. [/B][/QUOTE]

    Let's play that game.. where someone says a word and the others say the first thing that they think of concerning it.

    I'll start!

    Faith = Nutjob!:D
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lord Refa [/i]
    [B]Let's play that game.. where someone says a word and the others say the first thing that they think of concerning it.

    I'll start!

    Faith = Nutjob!:D [/B][/QUOTE]

    Ah... there we go...

    Pot calling the Kettle black...

    True form!

    ;)
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
    [B]
    Pot calling the Kettle black...
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    I have yet to figure out what that phrase means.
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by croxis [/i]
    [B]I have yet to figure out what that phrase means. [/B][/QUOTE]

    Seriosly? :)

    It is a back woods phrase for hypocracy...

    Seeing as how both the Pot and the Kettle sit on a wood fire stove and get blackened by the soot...

    ;)

    Pots are usually cast iron, and kettles polished steel or copper around here. The bottom line is that in the soot of a stove fire they are both carbon black and so the pot pointing out the fact that the kettle is now black without judging himself the same is the hypocracy.

    :D
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    By the way...

    I was refering to the generalization of Faith = Nutjob...

    I take offence to that comment, and I am VERY much considering the source when I used that idiom...

    :D
  • PSI-KILLERPSI-KILLER Needs help
    Thank god Turkey is in NATO.
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    [IMG]http://www.vgcats.com/news/comic_spore_Will.jpg[/IMG]
  • Lord RefaLord Refa Creepy, but in a good way
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
    [B]By the way...

    I was refering to the generalization of Faith = Nutjob...

    I take offence to that comment, and I am VERY much considering the source when I used that idiom...

    :D [/B][/QUOTE]

    I'm not a nutjob! Just a bit crazy, 's all..

    But all the ones who blame some deity for their stupidness are nutjobs. :)
  • StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
    [B]Why is it always "do you [i]believe[/i] in evolution?" as if it's another religious belief? [/B][/QUOTE]

    I noticed that too. :D

    Man, Spore hasn't been released yet and they are abusing it already...
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Lord Refa [/i]
    [B]But all the ones who blame some deity for their stupidness are nutjobs. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

    That's better...

    ;)
  • HasdrubalHasdrubal Earthforce Officer
    Atheists cause nore destruction, sometimes. How many people did Stalin kill? How about Mao? How bloody was the French Revolution compared to the American?

    Religion can make people blind, certainly, but to me the real danger is when people decide that they would make a better ultimate authority based purely on the supremacy of their own being.

    Religion places the ultimate authority in the hands of some intangible, unknowable entity. The power left to human beings, then, is somewhat limited. Deny the possibility of a god, and you leave the door open for one or more persons to claim the same kind of decision making power for themselves.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't like the faith healers and snake handlers any more than you do, but don't forget that the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution were written in accordance with socially accepted religious dogma. "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights," is an undeniably religious statement.

    Here's a question. Assuming there is no god-type figure, somewhere out there, what is it that makes human beings special? Is there something else that causes us to have "unalienable rights?" If not, then why are slavery and genocide morally wrong? At that point, it becomes survival of the fittest.
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    may as well bump and old thread: [url]http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/what_only_50_myths.php[/url]
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    That's a good one there...

    ;)

    12.) That evolution equals atheism.

    I know A# won't agree, but to each their own...

    :)
  • Evolution doesn't equal atheism, as there is the motion that "God created the earth, and put evolution into play" thing going around...

    The problem is that is only accepting part of the Bible as true, it's claims part of the Bible is a lie, and the rest as accurate.

    The problem with THAT lays in that if part of the Bible is false, then the rest loses credibility.

    It's either all right, or all wrong.

    I'm more interested in this one:

    [i]19) Evolution requires faith.[/i]

    Because IMHO, it would take truckloads more faith to belive in Evolution, than a creator.
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    Despite the fact all of modern biology is built on it? the theory of Evolution is the theory of plate tectonics or the theory of general relativity for biology (and modern medicine), are you willing to forgo use of medication if it was discovered by the application of evolutionary theory?

    [url]http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html[/url]

    This one is of particular interest to me:
    [quote]The earth shakes whenever God really gets mad. 18:7[/quote]

    From my observations it seems to me that the punishment a god(s) deal tot he people is the exact same as the destructive natural events of the region the religion developed. Interesting enough islamjudachristian developed in a tectonically active region. Could this be why everything was fire and brimstone?
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    I was told that Brimstone was actually Sulfur when I was a younger lad, but recently I watched a "Survivor Guy" show where he's out in a middle-East desert and he collects these dirt clod nodules and stacks em like coals then ignites them to keep warm!

    So... REAL Brimstone is a petroleum laden dirt clod that can catch fire. Get this too...

    The dirt is a bright white color, and so could look like hail...

    Buring hail?

    hmmm... Where have I seen that before?

    :D

    EDIT: Ok... so they really are Sulfur based, and not petroleum... but the key is that this is a unique form of it...

    :)
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    That's pretty cool, Jack. :D

    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
    [B]The problem is that is only accepting part of the Bible as true, it's claims part of the Bible is a lie, and the rest as accurate.[/B][/QUOTE]

    I think there's a difference between "story/myth written to explain what people couldn't possibly hope to comprehend at the time" (in this case, how God created the world) and "lie," which implies some kind of bad intention and is defined as saying something false to purposefully deceive someone. Just because part of the Bible may be myth to explain the unexplainable, that doesn't automatically mean the rest must be wrong.
  • Random ChaosRandom Chaos Actually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
    It is interesting to inject into this discussion that the Pope endorsed evolution as valid a while back...
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    That is a very excellent point Biggles. Many times someone tries to think that because part of something must be wrong, the whole thing must be false. This is used from Moon hoax to reliability of religious text to theory of evolution. Just because part of something is wrong doesn't mean the whole idea is incorrect, it just needs an examination with a critical eye.
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    This site is a religious based site, but the info on the sulfur balls is what I wanted to point out, and has been verified in secular shows and discussions as well.

    Extracted from:

    [url=http://www.wyattarchaeology.com/sodom.htm]Dead Sea and Sodom and Gamorah[/url]

    [QUOTE]
    Embedded in these pure ashen remains are sulphur, or brimstone balls. Sulphur is usually found in crystalline form, but this sulphur is unique to the world as it is round, white and has the consistency of compact powder. It is usually 30-40% sulphur, whereas these sulphur balls are 95-98% pure sulphur. The impurities in the sulphur are metals that would add to the heat given off. It burns at 5000-6000 degrees Fahrenheit. It was tested at Galbraith Laboratories, Knoxville, Tennessee, USA. They said that a BTU test could not be done as it would damage their stainless steel testing chamber. Sulphur is usually only found by volcanoes, sulfide ore mineral veins, or by sedimentary rocks associated with anhydrite, gypsum, limestone and saltdomes. We know that these sulphur balls must have been burning at some time in the past, because of the presence of burn rings around them.
    [/QUOTE]

    [IMG]http://www.wyattmuseum.com/images/wpe1.jpg[/IMG]

    [IMG]http://www.wyattmuseum.com/images/wpe3.jpg[/IMG]

    [img]http://www.wyattarchaeology.com/images/aaron.jpg[/img]

    [IMG]http://www.wyattarchaeology.com/images/sulphurball.jpg[/IMG]
  • FreejackFreejack Jake the Not-so-Wise
    I have one interjection into this evolution/creation debate, and I think it is at the very core of the discussion, the rest is just arguing over finite points:

    The whole discussion comes down to one single belief:

    Do you believe the bible is a wholy perfect structure of literature and that all references and facts contained therein are exactly correct, or do you believe the Bible to be a guide, containing alegory and symbolism to help in your faith?

    If you believe the former, then much of humanity scientific knowledge, along with even more anthropological and historical information is invalidated. If you believe the latter, all of that knowledge and peacefully coexist with your faith.

    Two more points:
    First a logical paradox: A basic tenant of most Christian beliefs is original sin. That we are all imperfect and cannot be perfect. Second it is accepted that the bible is written by men. If the bible is to be a perfect, unerring work and it is written by man then, it means that man can be perfect, destroying the notion of original sin.

    Second, there can be a distinct difference between truth and fact: Say a sculptor created a statue depicting Lincoln cutting the chains of a slave. The representation can be taken as truth, as it was Lincoln's leadership that allowed the slave to be freed, but it is not fact. (thanks to my mother, who's an ordained minister, for the second point)

    Jake
  • StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Freejack [/i]
    [B]Do you believe the bible is a wholy perfect structure of literature and that all references and facts contained therein are exactly correct, or do you believe the Bible to be a guide, containing alegory and symbolism to help in your faith?

    If you believe the former, then much of humanity scientific knowledge, along with even more anthropological and historical information is invalidated. If you believe the latter, all of that knowledge and peacefully coexist with your faith.
    [/B][/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure you've got all bases covered in your statement. There are plenty of people (at least 2/3 of the world population) who don't believe more in the bible than they believe in say "The Lord of the Rings." The bible was written a long time ago by people who didn't know better. I'm not saying we know better now, but we do have a different point of view.

    Just because there seems to be an intelligent design behind life, doesn't mean it's completely artificial or completely a product of evolution. Nobody knows and those who claim they do, are probably lying because they were not there when it happened. :D
  • MessiahMessiah Failed Experiment
    Also, almost all religions have a separate telling of the creation of man. Just because you dont believe in evolution doesnt mean you believe in the christian/hebrew/arabic god.
  • HasdrubalHasdrubal Earthforce Officer
    I was always told as a child in school that science is not an attempt to say "this is the way the world is," but rather to say "this is the closest model we could come up with to sort of explain how it works."

    Newtonian mechanics is a pretty close model for everyday purposes. When you need something better, you use a more accurate but more complicated model. Quantum mechanics is not perfect either. Evolution seems to be a pretty good model, but that doesn't make it gospel.

    Science seems like it has become an institution of faith for some people lately. Anyone who doesn't believe whole-heartedly in its teachings is to be ridiculed as ignorant, as behind the times. To me, science is a tool, one that has not yet been surpassed as a means to discover how things happen. Science has never promised an answer to why. That is a matter for faith.

    Nick
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    [URL=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/24/washington/24evo.html?ex=1314072000&en=51fe61534e0cf171&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss]Evolution Major vanishes from approved federal funds list[/URL]

    Edit: it seems to be back now
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