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My reasons for being a little wary about this new B5 movie.
Commander Hamblin
Ranger
in Babylon 5
When Babylon 5 started it's latest run on the Sci Fi channel in America, I convinced a friend of mine to catch it from the first episode and, like me, watch it from beginning to end in about the span of a few months. (I was lucky enough to catch B5 when they first started showing it on the Sci Fi channel here in the UK, and within a few months, I'd seen the entire series). She's now up to season 3, and honestly, she can't thank me enough for getting her hooked on it. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
The exceptional quality of the show notwithstanding, she enjoyed the "breath of fresh air" that Babylon 5 gave her, after having become dissapointed with the staleness of such shows as Buffy, Angel, Voyager, X-Files, etc (Yes, even [b]I[/b], the die hard Trekkie and Voyager fan, think that Season 7 Voyager has been absolutely diabolical...I'm not even going to consider it in future, I'll think of it as the product of the writers doing some weird and exotic drug...anyway...).
We got into many a discussion about why these shows seemed to just become worse and worse recently, and we came to one conclusion - time. Quite simply, these shows had gone on far too long. I explained to her that JMS made sure B5 [b]only[/b] lasted for 5 seasons, and no matter how much all the fans wanted him to continue, he kept true to his dream, and made sure that five years was the limit. She applauds his decision, and thinks he was a very smart man for doing so.
However, as you can see, this obviously means that any further continuation of the B5 storyline, in the form of movies, a new series, etc, would only cause the quality to decrease over time, and this is what me and this woman are afraid of. She doesn't even know what Crusade is about yet (I'm trying as hard as I can to keep her away from spoilers of any kind [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]), except that it's set on a starship instead of a space station, and already she thinks she won't like it at all.
I mean, one of the reasons she loves Babylon 5 is the depth and diversity of the storylines and the characters (Yes, she liked Season 1, and no, she couldn't care less that the special effects were average, the battles slow, and the explosions not BIG enough back then. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]), but she feels that a show set on a starship would end this. And, again, she's afraid that the constant continuation of the B5 universe would threaten it's integrity, and cause it to fall into mediocrity.
I haven't yet told her about this new movie, but I'd like to express the same concerns here, and about any potential series which could develop as a result of this movie. Isn't anyone else worried that if B5 just keeps going on and on and on, with incarnation after incarnation after incarnation (TV, that is, I don't mind about games [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]), that soon it'll become just like every other show out there?
And yes, I'm still a die hard Trekkie, so don't even think of me changing loyalties. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
One more thing, I MAY be directing her to this thread, I don't know...but if I do, keep the spoilers to a minimum, thank you very much. She's only up to the first few episodes of Season 3. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] Last time I asked, she'd only just seen the first episode of Season 3, though that may have changed by the time she reads this, and any replies.
The exceptional quality of the show notwithstanding, she enjoyed the "breath of fresh air" that Babylon 5 gave her, after having become dissapointed with the staleness of such shows as Buffy, Angel, Voyager, X-Files, etc (Yes, even [b]I[/b], the die hard Trekkie and Voyager fan, think that Season 7 Voyager has been absolutely diabolical...I'm not even going to consider it in future, I'll think of it as the product of the writers doing some weird and exotic drug...anyway...).
We got into many a discussion about why these shows seemed to just become worse and worse recently, and we came to one conclusion - time. Quite simply, these shows had gone on far too long. I explained to her that JMS made sure B5 [b]only[/b] lasted for 5 seasons, and no matter how much all the fans wanted him to continue, he kept true to his dream, and made sure that five years was the limit. She applauds his decision, and thinks he was a very smart man for doing so.
However, as you can see, this obviously means that any further continuation of the B5 storyline, in the form of movies, a new series, etc, would only cause the quality to decrease over time, and this is what me and this woman are afraid of. She doesn't even know what Crusade is about yet (I'm trying as hard as I can to keep her away from spoilers of any kind [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]), except that it's set on a starship instead of a space station, and already she thinks she won't like it at all.
I mean, one of the reasons she loves Babylon 5 is the depth and diversity of the storylines and the characters (Yes, she liked Season 1, and no, she couldn't care less that the special effects were average, the battles slow, and the explosions not BIG enough back then. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]), but she feels that a show set on a starship would end this. And, again, she's afraid that the constant continuation of the B5 universe would threaten it's integrity, and cause it to fall into mediocrity.
I haven't yet told her about this new movie, but I'd like to express the same concerns here, and about any potential series which could develop as a result of this movie. Isn't anyone else worried that if B5 just keeps going on and on and on, with incarnation after incarnation after incarnation (TV, that is, I don't mind about games [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]), that soon it'll become just like every other show out there?
And yes, I'm still a die hard Trekkie, so don't even think of me changing loyalties. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
One more thing, I MAY be directing her to this thread, I don't know...but if I do, keep the spoilers to a minimum, thank you very much. She's only up to the first few episodes of Season 3. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] Last time I asked, she'd only just seen the first episode of Season 3, though that may have changed by the time she reads this, and any replies.
Comments
That's what was brilliant about B5, JMS told his story, and when it was over, he walked away.
All that being said however, it is a big universe he's playin in. Yes, the Babylon 5 saga is over. The story of the Little Space Station That Could has been told.
But there are many other stories I would like to hear. The story of the Technomages (now being told in book form.)
The Adventures of Lyta and G'kar.
I enjoyed the Story of Bester (which was an excellent trilogy).
The Story of Centauri Prime (also an excellent trilogy.)
I also enjoyed the story of Crusade (what little there was,) and I believe that it would have gone on to become another excellent series (especially without network meddling.)
So, another B5 series, produced by JMS?
BRING IT ON!!!!
Z
In my opinion the ST series like Voyager and DS9 are spin-offs in the truest sense: they represent a continuation of the ST , but do not really develop and shape the ST universe. In essence, after the introduction of the setting in the 1st few episodes, they fall into familiar patterns much like the ST series that have gone before. There is not much growth.
But I believe that jms has a story to tell in Crusade, LOTR and the books. Here there is truly room for growth and development in the B5 universe. That's what's exciting about the new project.
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[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
"Do [b]NOT[/b] interfere."
Cherio.
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Catapvltam habeo. Nisi pecvniam omnem mihi dabis, ad capvt tvvm saxvm immane mittam.
Mater tva criceta fvit, et pater tvo redolvit bacarvm sambvcvs.
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
---
[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate it if it were the other way around.
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No plan survives first contact with reality.
Anyway, about the 'time' he mentioned. I do think that has alot to do with the lack of quality material being now pumped out by such shows as Buffy, Angel, etc. Eventually anyone will run out of fresh material on the same subject. That is not to say that I think the B5 universe is limited in any way. As a matter of fact I am not worried about another B5 movie. I personally think this is the direction the X-Files should have taken after season five.
As for what he said about me and [i]Crusade[/i]; I've seen a bit of some episodes and it just doesn't look like something I will love to the extent of Babylon 5. But I am eagerly waiting for the end of B5 so [b]Commander Hamblin[/b] will at long last let me watch the movies. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[b]Commander Hamblin[/b] has forbidden me to read anything here other than [i]this[/i] thread.
[This message has been edited by CaptainHope (edited 05-22-2001).]
It's possible to give your opinion of another show without "bashing" it.
I personally enjoy watching Star Trek, but because of the increased technobabble I don't enjoy it as much as B5.
Star Trek, in my opinion, relies to much on technobabble to escape tough situations.
But back to the topic at hand... The original Babylon 5 series was the story about the Babylon 5 station and the lives of the people it affected.
Spinoffs can be every bit as engaging and powerful as the series on which they're based...they must stand on their own, however, and that's the tricky part.
On the one hand, you've got loyal B5 fans who want more of the same formula. On the other hand, if you want the show to do well, you've got to rope in new viewers...so you can't rely on the old series too much, or you'll make your new audience think they're missing something.
JMS is good at subtle exposition, so I think he'll get viewers up to speed on what they need to know in the first few episodes.
Exposition is very difficult to pull off well with a new series, especially a spin-off.
I think this show will do well. JMS has been doing this stuff for more than a decade. I'm sure we'll see good stuff in this new series.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 05-22-2001).]
[b]I would be the [i]friend[/i] [b]Commander Hamblin[/b] was talking about. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[/B][/quote]
Welcome to the FirstOnes board. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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[b]Commander[/b] socrates
flightleader, [i]Erinyes[/i]
The Gray Hand of Fate
AnlaShok Blackops
"Do [b]NOT[/b] interfere."
[b]Keen[/b]:
That might explain why I haven't liked what I've seen of [i]Crusade[/i] so far. At the risk of Trek/Crusade bashing, [i]Crusade[/i] looks to be what Trek has become and I don't like it.
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[b]Commander Hamblin[/b] has forbidden me to read anything here other than [i]this[/i] thread.
Babylon 5 would not have been seen as a great show if only the first 13 episodes had aired...mainly because the story arc hadn't quite gotten udnerway, and the initial episodes were character-focused...they had to introduce characters and tell a lot of backstory...they were a bit more "awkward" than the rest of the series. Plus, the actors were still settling into their characters.
So moving on to a more pleasant thought.
The only first episodes of B5 that I really didn't like was the pilot. It seemed... I don't know bland. But having [b]Commander Hamblin[/b]'s word I watched and I'd say in about five episodes I was hooked. And there's another episode about boxing somewhere that I didn't like, but that was more the fact that I'm not really interested in boxing and that was pretty much all that happened in that episode.
Anyway after I see B5 all the way through I will be willing to give [i]Crusade[/i] a fair go.
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[b]Commander Hamblin[/b] has forbidden me to read anything here other than [i]this[/i] thread.
Like how there was a clue as two who helped plot to assassinate Kosh...it was someone in Earthforce, and you can see this person's name CLEARLY on a computer screen when Del Varner swipes an access card...
I tend to agree with your points regarding the pilot. I thought it was very intelligent and well thought-out but somehow lacking in energy. On the other hand, the scene where Sinclair described his blackout experience on the Line was terrific, a definate eye-opener.
Hamblin, you raised good points, but there are always new stories to be told. You know the addage about not counting your chickens before they're hatched? I didn't think DS9 diminished with time. Granted there was lots of room for improvement, but it was pretty good nonetheless.
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There are 3 things in life I never forget: my friends, my enemies, and my access codes.
Never put gasoline in a fire extinguisher.
"No government, no dictator can hold an imprisioned population by force of arms forever. There is no power in the universe greater than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies [i]cannot stand[/i]." - G'Kar, [i]The Long Twighlight Struggle[/i]
[url="http://www.globalserve.net/~archons"]www.globalserve.net/~archons[/url]
I first visited The Lurker's Guide to B5 ( [url="http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/"]http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/[/url] ) just before the pilot aired in 1993. It was so chock full of information, it really helped me to enjoy the episodes and overall story arc on a greater level.
I still go there just to browse through JMS' explanations and little trivia about the episodes.... it's a valuable resource, and a great read.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 05-23-2001).]
The new movie sound interesting to me and I don't think it will suffer for the "time/quality" issue that Trek has fallen into.
1- The B5 universe is dynamic and JMS allows it to evolve, where the Trek universe hasn't really had that chance.
2- No, or little, technobabble. JMS isn't afraid to have the good guys loose.
That's just my two cents. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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Rambie
[url="http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/SE4-Index.htm"]www.xmission.com/~rstulce/SE4-Index.htm[/url]
[b]You are right that it is easy for TV people to run something into the ground. It happens all the time. Sometimes, rarely, they know when to quit, as in MASH and Babylon 5.
That's what was brilliant about B5, JMS told his story, and when it was over, he walked away.
All that being said however, it is a big universe he's playin in. Yes, the Babylon 5 saga is over. The story of the Little Space Station That Could has been told.
But there are many other stories I would like to hear. The story of the Technomages (now being told in book form.)
The Adventures of Lyta and G'kar.
I enjoyed the Story of Bester (which was an excellent trilogy).
The Story of Centauri Prime (also an excellent trilogy.)
I also enjoyed the story of Crusade (what little there was,) and I believe that it would have gone on to become another excellent series (especially without network meddling.)
So, another B5 series, produced by JMS?
BRING IT ON!!!!
Z[/b][/quote]
I agree completely!!!! If JMS brought back a series on B5 itself, i.e. the station, then that would not be a good idea. However what would be intersting, would be a series on Babylon 4 when it got back in time, and how Sinclair/Valen helped the Minbari defeat the Shadows. That would be an interesting one....
Plus we have to remember that JMS's writing ability is far greater than the team behind Voyager and DS9. And because JMS created the universe himself, he can do pretty much what he wants. They could never do that with Voyager or DS9... if they did they'd have a million fans going nuts over not so accurate techno babble stuff.
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'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://babylon5.acmecity.com/alliance/110"]http://babylon5.acmecity.com/alliance/110[/url]
[This message has been edited by Falcon1 (edited 05-23-2001).]
Excuse me if I get a little pissed off here.
Samuelk, there's a very thin line between bashing and giving your opinion. A2597 seemed to me to be bashing Trek. He was stating his opinion that Trek doesn't have an "evolving storyline" as fact.
*sigh* I shouldn't have mentioned Trek at all, should I? I can't mention Trek at all without every Tom, Dick and Harry coming in here and giving me their "opinion", which is the same opinion that they've given time after time after time, and it becomes tiresome after a while. It's either "Trek sucks" or "Trek sucks, because...".
And then I can't argue with any of it because it's all just [b]their[/b] opinion, of course. It's [b]their[/b] right to state [b]their[/b] opinion, as many times as [b]they[/b] want to. There's also a little thing called common courtesy, perhaps you'd like to exercise it once in a while! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/icons/icon21.gif[/img]
I would really like to see how you lot would like it if the situation was reversed. It would get tiresome if everywhere you turned, you saw Trek fans saying either "B5 sucks" or "B5 sucks, because...". Especially if they're coming into a thread where I didn't want to get into some pointless argument where I'm defending Trek against hordes of B5 fans who wouldn't listen to me anyway, since it's all their own Goddamned opinion, and yet they keep seeing some need to constantly force that damned opinion down my throat whether I like it or not! Well, I'm so sorry if I get a little frustrated at this, but it just pisses me off, alright?
Why is it everywhere you see Trek mentioned you have to go on and on and on about how much you absolutely hate the Goddamned thing! So what! Isn't there any bloody other thing you can talk about? I try to start a reasonable discussion about this new [b]BABYLON 5[/b] movie, and I use [b]DIFFERENT[/b] examples of Angel, Buffy, X Files, AND Trek, and you lot (Not all, but a few) come in here and use it as the tiniest excuse to tell me, yet AGAIN, just how much you hate Trek, and why you hate Trek.
I GET THE PICTURE! YOU DON'T LIKE TREK! MOVE ON!
For the record, this rant is directed only at Mundane and A2597. The others who mentioned Trek at least had the courtesy to mention it within the context of this subject (Saying why they thought the time/quality thing had happened to Trek, but wasn't going to happen to B5).
[rant mode off]
Back to the topic, I probably sounded a little too definate when I claimed that I thought B5: LOTR, and any series which developed as a result, would go down in quality. Let me put it this way. I'm worried about what could potentially happen.
[quote]Originally posted by Sanfam:
You are pre-judging the series before it is out. Also: you are assuming that it will continue forever, just as trek is right now. I put my trust in JMS, believing that he will limit its expansion in that area. If he does allow for other series, they might be just as original and high quality as B5 was. You are again simply assuming that the next series will be a carbon copy of the last.[/quote]
I'm not the only one making assumptions here, nor am I the only one pre-judging the series. You all seem to be pre-judging it to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I mean, I know you're B5 fans, so obviously you would be looking forward to it with increased anticipation, but the way people are frothing at the mouth at [i]any single piece of information that comes out about it[/i] makes it seem as though you have very high expectations of it.
I AM keeping an open mind. If the movie is good, I'll like it. Hell, show me something along my interests, and 95% of the time, I'll like it. I love things many other people loathe (Voyager, for instance, not counting Season 7 [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]). So don't worry, I'm probably more likely to like it than some other people here, hehe!
But I'm still going to go in. An open mind works both ways. Gotta get ready for the down, not just anticipate the up. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by socrates:
I simply think that B5 is one story that has ended. The new projects, like Crusade and LOTR, are new stories, based on the B5 universe that stand on their own. They have their own story to tell, and their own characters to develop.[/quote]
The thing about creating a new story based on an existing universe, is that you've got to strike a balance between harking back to whatever it is based off of, while at the same time making it new and exciting, without people thinking "Oh great, it's just a carbon copy of the original".
Sooner or later, as has been demonstrated with other shows, you lose that balance. The show becomes trite and is either just repeating what the parent show did, or it becomes unrecognisable. Now, I'm not saying this [i]will[/i] happen. I'm saying there's a possibility this might happen, and I'm worried that it might happen to B5.
I Like Farscape...
I like the Alien series...
I like Star Wars too...
Babylon 5 is by far my favorite...
Basically as a good balance of writing, music, and CGI...
I think the issue with Trek is that it is so much more visible than most other series, so when the writing for the shows goes down hill, everyone notices it more...
Cheers!
I think the whole show will be summed up for you in the last episode when Sheridan's duck comes through the jump point.
...sniff...
it still brings tears to my eyes thinking about it.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
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bobo
<*>
B5:ITF
No, that's not it. It's the technobabble. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
And remember, today's scientists have said that EVERYTHING in Trek is technologically possible, in theory. Even the transporter and warp drive. It really gets me when people say that Trek tech is unrealistic. If you want to get techical, B5's hyperspace is actually more far-fetched that Trek's warp drive, from a physics point of view.
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[url="http://slade__tek.tripod.com/"]Alec McClymont, 3D Artist[/url]
3D Artist - GVFX
We live for the one. We die for the one.
Too many times on Star Trek (and other shows), the characters are thrown into a tense/dangerous/deadly situation, and then they just reconfigure a piece of equipment (like the deflector dish or the ram scoops, etc.), and then voila! They're OK!
Do that too many times, and the show becomes stale.
If you've ever seen a Trek script, you'll see large sections of the action denoted by single phrases like [tech].
I've never seen that in one of B5's scripts.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 05-23-2001).]
I've enjoyed watching all Eps' and 'spinoffs'. I love SCiFi in whatever form it comes in.
But Imo in any series,You have to have a strong storyline That is equally Fun,interesting and gripping.
ST (all Types) has had some good episodic story lines and also has had some that go nowhere..
My point is We cannot judge any series on one or two eps';or on any series That hasn't even been screened.
Personally,I can't wait for LOTR,or The new ST Series (I believe it pre-OS),Simply because I LUURVE SciFi.I wish I was Living in the Space exploritory Age.
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Does That make sence?!?!?
Well there we are. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
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Flt Lt
[i]Marcus[/i]*COAL*[i]Peake[/i]
Recruitment Officer
B Flt Ldr,1st Sqd
HMS Fearless
[b]Royal Space Force[/b]
[url="http://nbe.firstones.com/"][b]NEW BRITISH EMPIRE[/b][/url]
[b][i]Second to None[/b][/i]
[b][i]Join Today![/b][/i]
[b][i]"WE LIVE FOR THE SIM-WE DIE FOR THE SIM"[/b][/i]
[img]http://www.ujnews.com/images/greatbr.gif[/img]
<*>
[b]B5:I.T.F.[/b]
BABYLON 5 RULES.
Enjoy [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
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[i]"Heads up...Incoming Hostiles!"[/i]
[b][i]"WE LIVE FOR THE SIM-WE DIE FOR THE SIM"[/b][/i]
[b][i]Marcus:[/i]"Touch passion when it comes your way. It's rare enough as it is. Don't
walk away when it calls you by name."[/b]
B5 I.T.F.
<*>
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Pilot Officer Anla'Shok D. Nicol
Wingman
1st Squadron RSF
the NEW BRITISH EMPIRE
Second to None.
"If you value your lives, be somewhere else" - Delenn