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Bomb Blasts in London!!!!!!!!
Falcon1
Elite Ranger
in Zocalo v2.0
Very bad news, there's been 6 bomb blasts in London this morning on the underground. There's been lots of casualties, with a total shut down of the public transport network.
More news to follow...
More news to follow...
Comments
The buses look much worse than they probably are... they are light aluminium construction and as a consequence not that hard to damage in s spectacular fashion.
No incendiary effects are good news too
These look like 'media bombs', ones designed to attract the media vultures as much as anything else. I'll be willing to bet this is G8 summit related.
Blowing people up for a front page is a hang, draw and quarter offence in my book...
This is bad for UK anti-t policing. They made some significant arrests this year on terrorist cells planning a London bombing campaign. Looks like these got through!
Thoughts and Prayers extended to those hurt, and to the families of those killed. :(
[B]There's 2 confirmed deaths...[/B][/QUOTE]That's very low, in that case it might be that bombs weren't designed for maximum lethality but biggest target was psychological effect.
(compare how much people die in car accidents or diseases caused by smoking)
But even then that's much lower what would have been easily achievable considering circumstances.
An Islamic web site is claiming responsibility, Al-Qaeda have used that site before. Still doesn't match their mass-casualty tactic. This is nothing on the scale of Madrid and it could easily have been as worse as the Madrid bombings.
Regards,
Morden
I hope those who did it... are found, sooner rather than later... prevented from doing anything similar (and indeed, prevented from doing anything of note for most of the rest of their lives)... their support structure broken, and their resources wasted.
I wish there were efficient ways to prevent such attacks (or at least, ensure an attacker must trade their life to inflict serious damage)...
...but as things currently stand, a crowded place, especially when people hurry (a "forgotten" item is not immediately removed from people's proximity)... is a vulnerable target.
On this background... it may be worth consideration... to not only limit opportunities of un-noticably storing luggage in public transport... but request people to either:
-- Notify of apparently discarded luggage.
-- Immediately remind a person seen leaving something behind in crowded places, so that they take their stuff along (and if they don't, one should consider it a sign of hazard).
-- Keep (relatively) safe distance from unattended objects in customarily crowded places.
[B]Just watching the new footage, words cannot describe how immensely proud I am of both the emergency services, and the people of London themselves in how they have responded to the attacks. All three branches were clearly prepared for such an event, and have functioned like an indefatigable, well-oiled machine in dealing with those affected. If the scum who planned this thought that they would have us running around like headless chickens, they were very much mistaken. The British are made of stronger stuff than that.
Regards,
Morden [/B][/QUOTE]
It's worth noting that London has had extensive experience with both the blitz during WW2 and with IRA bombings. They didn't cave for either of those, they sure as hell arn't going to cave for some idiot religious extremists.
Bush will start a war in England and look for WMD's under the guise of liberating England from the tyranny of the current regiem...
:p
Seriously though, man that's bad...
:(
Everybody seems to have forgotten the many many years of attack threats from the IRA, the Canary Wharf bombing being one of the worst back in the 1990's. So London has always been prepared.
As mentioned already by others, its amazing how well all the emergency services responded, everything worked and they dealt with it. And the reaction of the citizens there has been amazing as well. Very brave!
They're saying now that they think the underground train bombs didn't go off at the right times/locations. Damn lucky!!
[B]I wish there were efficient ways to prevent such attacks (or at least, ensure an attacker must trade their life to inflict serious damage)...
-- Keep (relatively) safe distance from unattended objects in customarily crowded places. [/B][/QUOTE]Problem is that they are ready to trade their life, and often do that... thanks to religion.
(weak minded brainless fools and religion is always dangerous combination)
Which also mostly negates latter.
[B]It's worth noting that London has had extensive experience with both the blitz during WW2 and with IRA bombings. They didn't cave for either of those, they sure as hell arn't going to cave for some idiot religious extremists. [/B][/QUOTE]
Absolutely.
I've found a copy of the speech Ken Livingstone made after the attacks. It's almost Churchillian in its power and eloquance.
[QUOTE][b]This was a cowardly attack, which has resulted in injury and loss of life. Our thoughts are with everyone who has been injured, or lost loved ones. I want to thank the emergency services for the way they have responded.
Following the al-Qaeda attacks on September 11th in America we conducted a series of exercises in London in order to be prepared for just such an attack. One of the exercises undertaken by the government, my office and the emergency and security services was based on the possibility of multiple explosions on the transport system during the Friday rush hour. The plan that came out of that exercise is being executed today, with remarkable efficiency and courage, and I praise those staff who are involved.
I'd like to thank Londoners for the calm way in which they have responded to this cowardly attack and echo the advice of the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair - do everything possible to assist the police and take the advice of the police about getting home today.
I have no doubt whatsoever that this is a terrorist attack. We did hope in the first few minutes after hearing about the events on the Underground that it might simply be a maintenance tragedy. That was not the case. I have been able to stay in touch through the very excellent communications that were established for the eventuality that I might be out of the city at the time of a terrorist attack and they have worked with remarkable effectiveness. I will be in continual contact until I am back in London.
I want to say one thing specifically to the world today. This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful. It was not aimed at Presidents or Prime Ministers. It was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old. It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever.
That isn't an ideology, it isn't even a perverted faith - it is just an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder and we know what the objective is. They seek to divide Londoners. They seek to turn Londoners against each other. I said yesterday to the International Olympic Committee, that the city of London is the greatest in the world, because everybody lives side by side in harmony. Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack. They will stand together in solidarity alongside those who have been injured and those who have been bereaved and that is why I'm proud to be the mayor of that city.
Finally, I wish to speak directly to those who came to London today to take life.
I know that you personally do not fear giving up your own life in order to take others - that is why you are so dangerous. But I know you fear that you may fail in your long-term objective to destroy our free society and I can show you why you will fail.
In the days that follow look at our airports, look at our sea ports and look at our railway stations and, even after your cowardly attack, you will see that people from the rest of Britain, people from around the world will arrive in London to become Londoners and to fulfil their dreams and achieve their potential.
They choose to come to London, as so many have come before because they come to be free, they come to live the life they choose, they come to be able to be themselves. They flee you because you tell them how they should live. They don't want that and nothing you do, however many of us you kill, will stop that flight to our city where freedom is strong and where people can live in harmony with one another. Whatever you do, however many you kill, you will fail.[/b][/QUOTE]
God Save The Queen
Regards,
Morden
There is simply no way to prevent completely acts of war and mass murder like this with defensive measures.
The only way to stop these twisted evil people is to go where they live and kill them all. Kill them and those
that support and help them, because they are just as guilty as the ones who set the bombs off.
Blow up the wahabist madrasa (spelling?) terrorist factories where these maniacs, like Osama Bin Laden,
are trained to go murder westerners and destroy our countries because they have declared war
on the Christian west. The only way to stop them is to exterminate them all. Because they will not stop
murdering innocent men, women and children ever until we stop them by force.
It's about time we woke up and got brutal with these barbaric evil monsters and stop playing by
idiotic "nice" rules that the enemy never follows, because nothing but crushing force works with them.
Which is what I said in my post. I assume no one here has any problem
with killing the terrorists and those that have aided them in attacking
the U.S. and mass murdering our citizens, and that have now done
the same in England, as well.
And it will make us safer because there will no longer be any (or at
least very few) of the terrorists alive to plan major attacks on us
in the future.
Since this is a Bab5 board let me take this rather lacking comparison. I suspect that most of you sympathized with the Narn resistance in the Bab5 series - how can you blame the bombers?
Things like this tend to happen if you invade and occupy other countries. It is just sad if, like in those countries overseas, the victims are civilists and not combatants.
One simple solution to this: don't wage wars.
Raven, do you honestly believe that the people that perpetrated this attack are Iraqies or even Afgans ?
They, by default, if they are Al-kaeda, are Muslim extremists. I wouldn't be suprised if some of them are British citizens, perhaps only by immigration but citizens none-the-less.
This isn't about race, colour or creed, its about religion, about ideologies and the clash thereof. Ideology is a dangerous thing, one doesnt have to go back too far to find a glaring example. The Third Reich was an ideology gone mad. Al-kaeda's version of the Islamic state isn't that much different in terms of its total indifference, ( at best) or pathological hatred (at worst) towards those whom do not share thier worldview.
Thankfully, they are attempting to destroy something the majority believe in, within the countries they target, rather than picking on a minority, like Hilter did in targeting the Jewish.
As far as I'm concerned, I think the soloution is proper integration. Too many people immigrate into Western nations, straight into 'little 'nation-of-your-choice' ', a little enclave where they speak thier native tougue, only mix with thier fellow 'nationality X' persons and basically do thier level best to create an enclave within the prescincts of another nation. THAT my friend is where dissent, forment and racist/separatism is founded and fostered.
I'm not in any way suggesting anyone should not be free to live thier lives as they see fit, within the laws of thier respective nation, adopted or otherwise, but sure as hell think the immigrants to any nation are steeped and immersed in the culture of the nation they come to. They need a very good command of the language, perhaps better than the natives. They need to go to prescribed classes in history and culture which pertain to thier new nation and pass an exam giving them a very good knowledge of where they have come to. They need to know just where they are, what the indigenous culture is and be aware of whats acceptable and what isn't.
I'd outlaw schools which teach any form of religious message. There should be NO school, not even Christian which teaches religion. Religion belongs in Temples, Mosques, Churches, Synagogues and Shrines. There should be a separation of Church and Education system. If you want Religious education, go to Sunday school, or 'Thursday' school, or whichever day is the sabbath for your chosen religion. Otherwise... join the masses in a school where you can be taught what it means to be a part of the nation you live in.
Oh... and anyone guilty of terrorism, faces life in prison and everyone related to that person within 2 generations is either jailed alongside them, or, in the case of recent immigration, regardless of naturalisation etc, is deported. All assets are seized, liquidated and distributed via a fund set up for victims of terrorism.
Terrorism depends on networks of people who may not directly support them, but may hide and abet them. It has to be made clear that harbouring a terrorist jeopardises the freedom of those whom do.
Bring in laws something like this and watch the terrorist networks evapourate like they were never there....
I disagree with your argument that religion is the cause - it is just a very convenient cover for any atrocities imaginable. Hurt / dead relatives or friends can make a pretty good reason.
On the other hand I totally agree with the cessation of religious activities outside [b]their[/b] community. Regardless of the god (or whatever) whorshipped.
(The immmigration question will go to much off topic, therefore I skip it.)
Making innocent relatives responsible for the deeds of their kin is exactly the reason for much of the violence in Israel. You just can't bomb/discriminate people wha just happen to be near/related to a criminal and expect them to keep quit. In fact even I (considering myself a pacifist) might grab myself a gun if such a law would be passed. There is no difference between such a behaviour and a fascist regime - it would be not democratic anymore.
Since the rest of your post was reasonable, I shall comment only on the parts which make me want... to whack someone with a major-league clue bar.
[quote]...and everyone related to that person within 2 generations is either jailed alongside them...[/quote]
Before you give such recommendations... really take a bit of time, and model what you recommend (including the consequences).
Any institution (for example Al Quaeda, which attacks innocent civilians, Egypt which jails and tortures people for political dissent, or United States, which occasionally kidnaps people and delivers them to countries like Egypt)...
...land on my short list of "institutions to wear down", until they realize their error and change themselves, or weaken sufficiently to intimidate them into change.
Also, please consider... what do you think those guys (who detonated those bombs) were practising? Exactly! Collective retribution to innocent people. The same what you propose.
[quote]Bring in laws something like this and watch the terrorist networks evapourate[/QUOTE]
Bring in such laws... and watch me become their tentative ally... in undermining any country with such laws. (Within certain ethical constraints, the enemy of my enemy is my ally -- even if they are an enemy too.)
[rant]
(A word of warning, this is a (for me very untypical) rant, and i hope it doesn't offend anyone)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
[B]
As far as I'm concerned, I think the soloution is proper integration. Too many people immigrate into Western nations, straight into 'little 'nation-of-your-choice' ', a little enclave where they speak thier native tougue, only mix with thier fellow 'nationality X' persons and basically do thier level best to create an enclave within the prescincts of another nation. THAT my friend is where dissent, forment and racist/separatism is founded and fostered.
I'm not in any way suggesting anyone should not be free to live thier lives as they see fit, within the laws of thier respective nation, adopted or otherwise, but sure as hell think the immigrants to any nation are steeped and immersed in the culture of the nation they come to. They need a very good command of the language, perhaps better than the natives. They need to go to prescribed classes in history and culture which pertain to thier new nation and pass an exam giving them a very good knowledge of where they have come to. They need to know just where they are, what the indigenous culture is and be aware of whats acceptable and what isn't.[/B][/QUOTE]
Amen to that.
That (well, that it isn't done) is the reason why racism or "xenophobia" is on the rise here in europe. It's more the exception than the rule that i hear people speaking german in the subway, and immigrants (the one that you notice, there are many many that do integrate) seem to be of the opinion that WE should adopt THEIR way of living.
What alarms me the most about this is the absolute simple-mindedness that the politicians are showcasing. All this pseudo-guilt, this forced trying not to show anything remotely racist, gives any immigrant more rights than any citizen who didn't immigrate during the last 20 years.
This whole attitude has exactly the opposite effect that the one they are going for, it pushes the people towards the same dissatisfaction that spread through our great-grandparents before the Third Reich.
And I even see this in myself and many of my friends, we used to be open and without any preconceptions, just 5-7 years ago.
And what those Terrorists are doing, doesn't help easing the public's minds.
I'm afraid we are going to see something similar to the Third Reich in our livetimes again, just look at the changes that have taken place in the US in the years since 9/11...
[/rant]
[edit: put the whole paragraphs i agree with in the post, since i do not agree with the ones following and want to avoid misunderstanding]