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What I believe
I believe that if this situation is dealt with the right way...we will be closer to a world government...maybe there will be one.
I dont know how it will work, what it will be like and its a terrible price for it.
Perhaps we can then focus our attention to the stars instead of fighting each other.
What happened on Tuesday was the result of hatred. After I realied that, I forgave everyone who ever did anything bad to me, my family and my friends...no matter how terrible.
That does not mean those responsible should not be brought to justice. They have to be, but we must not hate them, because if we do then part of our selves will die and we could end up turning into the same people capable of such dreadful actions.
I just hope that there are others out there who realise the same thing.
Worf
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"Playing computer and video games doesnt create murderers and terrorists....cancelling computer and video games creates them." -Me-
Join the fight for freedom at [url="http://www.newrepublic.de"]http://www.newrepublic.de[/url] and [url="http://www.isd-imperium.co.uk"]http://www.isd-imperium.co.uk[/url]
I dont know how it will work, what it will be like and its a terrible price for it.
Perhaps we can then focus our attention to the stars instead of fighting each other.
What happened on Tuesday was the result of hatred. After I realied that, I forgave everyone who ever did anything bad to me, my family and my friends...no matter how terrible.
That does not mean those responsible should not be brought to justice. They have to be, but we must not hate them, because if we do then part of our selves will die and we could end up turning into the same people capable of such dreadful actions.
I just hope that there are others out there who realise the same thing.
Worf
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"Playing computer and video games doesnt create murderers and terrorists....cancelling computer and video games creates them." -Me-
Join the fight for freedom at [url="http://www.newrepublic.de"]http://www.newrepublic.de[/url] and [url="http://www.isd-imperium.co.uk"]http://www.isd-imperium.co.uk[/url]
Comments
[quote]all countries have their good and bad sides. The UK possbilly has one of the worst bad sides out there, did you know that it was the UK that first used concentration camps during the Boer war? All countries sell arms etc... there are lots of problems in all....
I was going to point out the following important fact - relevant in the upcoming capture and punishment of the terrorists:
We may capture this group of terrorists and put them behind bars (or otherwise) but unless we [i]also[/i] address the underlying problems that caused them to perform these acts another group of terrorists will appear. From the current language I've been hearing in the press (from all countries) leads me to believe that our governments are going to try to suppress terrorism via fear of retribution, something that has and will never work.
The UK has been dealing with problems due to our stance on Ireland for 400 years, we have tried time and time again through history to halt their acts against us via fear and death. Did it stop the troubles? no, it made them worse. Every person we killed became a martyr and more rallied around the cause. Only now after analysing how we as the UK have behaved and making attempts to alter how we act is any progress being made. The major terrorism from the IRA and other groups has all but stopped.
What I'm saying is yes we must hit at the terrorists, there is [b]no[/b] excuse for taking peoples lives to try and get a viewpoint across, but we must also look to ourselves and ask which of these bad things which we are doing must we change.
If we deny that our countries have faults and don't look and address them then we can never truely stop terrorism.
Hell, if we put as much effort into making a lasting peace, removing poverty and inequality on the planet as much as we put into weaponry and defences we will finally remove the causes that make people think they have no other way than use violence.
I'm leaving this debate for now, until our countries act. For now I'm going to get back to the thing that brought us to this forum in the first place, the mod.
CnlPepper - Moderator saying the door *must* swing both ways[/quote]
Hopefully if we do things right we will be one step closer to one world government and peace. If we chose the wrong path we will only have to endure more pain.
CnlPepper - Been thinking this for a long time now....
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[b]HW:B5TC Dev. Team Member and B5TC Board Moderator.[/b]
[url="http://www.geocities.com/cnlpepperplanet"]CnlPepper's B5 Mod Resources[/url]
[This message has been edited by CnlPepper (edited 09-14-2001).]
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I think an overall world government would be a bad idea anyway, just from a purely administrative point of view; nothing would get done and the beaurocracy would be unbelievable.
Regarding the terrorists; once they are captured, they should just be "dissappeared" and no more should be heard of them. The people will forget.
Cherio.
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Catapvltam habeo. Nisi pecvniam omnem mihi dabis, ad capvt tvvm saxvm immane mittam.
Mater tva criceta fvit, et pater tvo redolvit bacarvm sambvcvs.
[This message has been edited by Shuup Nick (edited 09-15-2001).]
Forgiveness is not for the person you are forgiving, although it does release them to move on and hopefully change their ways. Forgiveness is for yourself, and your own peace of mind, soul, and spirit. It allows [b][i]YOU[/i][/b] to move on, and not get trapped in the past and burnt up by vengeance. There's a reason that "Vengeance is the Lord's", because otherwise you get lost in the seething blindness of hate that only begets more hate.
I love my mother because she is blood, but what is right and true is much stronger than blood. She carries her hate like a shield, and though it may protect her from the outside arrows of everyday life, she is dying within, and has chased everyone away from her successfully.
I love my father also, though I haven't talked to him in years, because he found other things in life a higher priority than being around for me as I grew up.
I don't communicate with either now, not because I hate them, but because I can't meet them on an equal ground. Neither are ready to set aside disagreements and just talk, or just listen. Until such time I have, and will continue to live my life like I have no parents. It's the only way I can keep my sanity. The door is of course open when they are ready, but I fear that time will fly away before that day can arrive.
I had forgotten that lesson for a while, and now I have come back to its realization.
I personally have carried a hatred for several years now that I need to shed here and now. The actions of Sierra/Havas at the Oakhurst division have haunted me long enough. I have now released them from my mind as the past, and that's where they will stay.
Many of my peers and colleagues have come to this point years ago now, and they are likely all the better for it.
As to what happened to New York, the Pentagon, Philly, to the country, to the world even, I have to hold on to this for a time yet. There maybe forgiveness later on, but I will always remember Tuesday, and I will NEVER forget the cowardice, the savagery, and the down right deplorable actions taken.
I am not the one really who has to forgive the enemy for all the lives lost and souls touched by these actions.
I say mercy maybe, but justice for sure.
For the ones who are accountable for this, may God have mercy on your soul, because there is surely going to be a vacuum of it here, in the heart and souls of everyone affected by this.
God give me strength, because I'll need it...
_____
I am not so easily moved to see a One World Government myself.
Not because several religions fortell its coming and warn about it in the context of their message, but because I see the more simple and dangerous possibility that some of the things they warn about are possible.
I do not accept this very dangerous idea that "Be it God or the Devil, send us a leader". More likely than not, it WILL be a Devil.
Leaving religion (or faith) out of the picture for a moment, do we really want to bring back the errors of Babylon or the Roman Empire? They fell within by corruption.
I think the nations of the world are far stronger in their diversity.
Sure, you could have a single man or small group of men who can utilize such power for the benefit of man, but we have learned painfully through the years that innevitably "absolute power, corrupts absolutely".
What unspeakable attrocities are lying in wait a few decades down the road?
At a time when national governments can't even get their shit right, why do we think that a One World Government can do any better?
It seems to me to be just one bigger mistake than a whole bunch of small ones, and one that carries a much bigger impact in the end.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
On the subject of the "One World Government":
Keep in mind that we, as a species, have always had a multitude of differing views; that is as much a part of our being as our desire to explore those places where no one else has been and thus will probably not change. That alone makes a single world government very difficult (if not impossible) to implement and maintain.
Keep in mind as well that such a government will, in all likelihood, have a leader or leaders whose views and beliefs are not those of a great many people across the globe. Similar situations in individual countries have led to terrible civil wars (including here in the U.S.); the possibility of that happening world-wide (and what our hypothetical government would do to prevent or contain it) scares the living hell out of me. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img] (Nuclear Armageddon, anyone?)
Personally, I think we're better off with the current state of affairs (for now, at least); nations and their peoples (in democratic countries, at least) are free to determine their own affairs (internal and external) without too much interference (for the most part) from others.
[This message has been edited by An ex-Squid (edited 09-16-2001).]
When I have faced adversity in the past, I did not ask for pity. Help, yes, if it is needed, but sadness is a useless emotion. Why? Because we have a job to do.
We as a people, and as a nation, are possesed of an immense strength of will and heart that most people, even who live here, never truly understand. Only in times like this is it made apparent, because we are not a violent people by nature. It almost makes me glad to see the people on the street corners waving flags, to hear about people enlisting because they want to see justice done, because I can see in this the indomitable will of a nation united. We need no pity, because we are strong. Perhaps this tragedy will remind people just what it is to be American, so that one day we all may be proud again.
Who was it in B5 that said humans are strong because we form alliances? It is true. Our strength comes from our diversity, combined with an ability to join together, to put aside all our differences when we need to, and accomplish things nobody could have dreamed of alone. I do not want one world government, because in becoming like everyone else we would lose that individuality which gives us pride. I am proud to be who I am, and no man can take that from me. People from all nations have their own unique heritage and beliefs, and pride in who _they_ are. I would not see us lose that, not any of us from any nation. At the end of the day, with all our differences, we can still work together, and together we _will_ reach the stars.
Nick
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]and its navel gazing like that Rhett that stops us gaining any[/b][/quote]
Navel gazing?? Ok. Well anyways... I am totally for space exploration. All I was saying is that there is not enough monetary support for the space program right now.
On the other hand, I believe that there can be, at some point, a wisdom that comes out of the vast numbers of humankind. If we survive long enough, I believe that there will be a shift in consciousness. Humanity will begin to see itself as a world family. At this point the vast numbers of hearts and minds working "out there" will find a way to respect ethnic, religious, political, and philosophical differences, while at the same time inventing a way to wrap this diversity into a world family.
When this happens, governance will follow. It must, for the people will demand it.
So, a single world government can work, but only if there is a shift in human consciousness first, and I’m sure that local control will continue to be an important part of the new design.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
This realization, combined with a respect and admiration for ones backround and heritage can transform this world into what we all hope for.
That is why it is so important for us to fight the remaining pokets of extreemism and hatred, right now they are the biggest threat to mutual cooperation.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
Easy for me to say, I guess, because I don't have to scrape my food out of the earth, or hide from bullets and mortar shells just to see the next day. Once the economies and education systems of the world, including my own country, are brought to the level they need to be, we can begin to build our new world. How this is to be done, though, requires a wiser person than I.
Nick
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Unfortunately, governments, like any bureaucracy, are designed to self perpetuate. Once a bureaucracy is in place it is worse than kudzu to uproot. Once in power, they no longer serve the people, but serve certain sectors of the people. They will pay lip service to the citizens and do the easiest and most expedient (though not necessarily the most cost effective) thing to solve the problem. It's interesting to note that the 3rd Continential Congress had as its primary purpose to balance the budget after the revolutionary war (just a brief digression).
Governments are about hegemony and franchisement limitation (a representative gov't, voting age, Jim Crow laws, etc), but times are changing faster than they can keep up. One of the primary reasons for a representative government was, to paraphrase one of the framers of the constitution, to allow those who should lead to lead, and let those who should farm, farm.
The modern citizen is much better informed than the average citizen of the 18th cent., if they choose to be so. Most people, however are content to let those who want power to take it, and the most they may do is bitch about it at Moe's Bar and Grill.
Don't ask me where I was going with this. I lost my train of thought...
Those power hungry leaders, and oppresive governments must be stopped. To create the world of our dreams all of us must start off on an equal basis. This can only occur if those with freedom and power decide that humanity it is worth fighting and dieing for. Perhaps this tragedy will wake people up and force us to wage war against the enemies of humanity around the world.
Knave,
I don't think that we as a species have discovered the last best form of government in our present democracy. What we have to do is build upon the succeses of the past, and remove the things that have failed.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
That is the one thing that will allow people to draw together.
Accepting that people can (and will) have a different view from you is important.
Americans are a religious people, but our forefathers, in their wisdom, saw, by example, that state-sponsored religion lead to aristocracy and religious intolerance.
That is our way, but it is not the way of the world.
We have to learn to accept that just as we epect others to accept us for our beliefs.
Sure, we aren't perfect, and we have our issues that we must work through, and now we must strive to show the world what our short, but active history, has taught us as a people.
To stand united, we must accept that we won't agree with everyone in the world.
But that's OK. It's about unity through diversity.
If China had no great wall, or rich history of imperial rule from the Forbidden City, would I want to visit it? If there were strip malls in Egypt and no pyramids, what would the world be like? If venice was paved with roads rather than Aquiducts, would that be better?
I think not.
Revel in the wonderful variety that the world has to offer...and all the richness that different cultures have to offer.
Love them as distant brothers and sisters, for we all did, indeed, come from the same ancestors.
And stand united to protect them from the forces of terror, wherever they might come from.
We, as Americans, have learned so much in our brief history; hopefully, one of the things we learned from the Cold War is that you can't force ideology on someone. The best you can do is to teach by example. And it is incumbant on every American to do so now.
Be hurt; be angry; but don't lash out in blind fury at your fellow Americans.
Remember the fundimental law that all are "innocent until proven guilty."
We are a melting pot of people. NYC is a shining example of that in itself.
Stand united against terrorism, don't become a prisoner to it.
And deliver swift, sure justice to those who did this, that they may never do it to anyone in this world again.
-Rick
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[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
Nick