Issues with your account? Bug us in the Discord!
With time comes wisdom...
Given more time to actually wrap my mind around this tragedy, I came to think that I don't want the coalition to bomb the terrorists and those who harbor them into the stone age.
I think it would be a far more effective statement to have them wake up in the middle of the night with the rifle-lights of a multilateral special forces team showing in their faces as they drag the terrorists and their leaders to a transport chopper.
Let them feel the terror they inflicted on those people in the plane under the darkness of night.
And let their followers throughout the world know that no matter where they hide, we'll find them, we'll get them, and we'll take them out to face justice.
Somehow I think the prospect of being taken alive is a greater fear than death to these people.
In my opinion.
I think it would be a far more effective statement to have them wake up in the middle of the night with the rifle-lights of a multilateral special forces team showing in their faces as they drag the terrorists and their leaders to a transport chopper.
Let them feel the terror they inflicted on those people in the plane under the darkness of night.
And let their followers throughout the world know that no matter where they hide, we'll find them, we'll get them, and we'll take them out to face justice.
Somehow I think the prospect of being taken alive is a greater fear than death to these people.
In my opinion.
Comments
Anyway... I absolutely agree, that would be the best option. Unfortunately I can't see Bush taking it. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[url="http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010917/wl/attack_afghan_scuds_dc_1.html"]http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010917/wl/attack_afghan_scuds_dc_1.html[/url]
Nick
How on earth would you even know that?
I'd say the less spies we [i]appear[/i] to have, the more [b]good[/b] spies we actually [i]do[/i] have. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 09-17-2001).]
[b]Let them feel the terror they inflicted on those people in the plane under the darkness of night.
And let their followers throughout the world know that no matter where they hide, we'll find them, we'll get them, and we'll take them out to face justice.
[/b][/quote]
I agree.......However
As long as they pay for their incarceration, Lawyer's fees, pain and suffering expenses, damages, and other fees out of their own pocket. As an American Taxpayer I feel that I should not pay one cent for these people's existence. I will pay for their arrest and trial but not their incarceration....IMO
A former CIA operative explains
why the terrorist Usama bin Ladin
has little to fear from American intelligence
[url="http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/07/gerecht.htm"]http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/07/gerecht.htm[/url]
an extremely informative read about what makes suicide bombers tick:
[url="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_SeptOct_2001/sprinzak.html"]http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_SeptOct_2001/sprinzak.html[/url]
[b]Here's an interesting read, re: spooks:
A former CIA operative explains
why the terrorist Usama bin Ladin
has little to fear from American intelligence
[url="http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/07/gerecht.htm"]http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2001/07/gerecht.htm[/url] [/b][/quote]
I had the great pleasure of sitting next to James Fallows on a train from NYC to DC shortly after reading Michael Chricton's novel "Rising Sun." I still have his business card in my Day Planner.
I never really read the Atlantic, nor did I pay close attention to his Tuesday Commentaries on NPR's Morning Edition until that time. It was, by far, one of the best train trips I ever had, and I was pleasantly releaved to hear his voice on NPR on Saturday past. I remember him saying that he commuted between lower manhattan and DC on an almost daily basis, splitting his work between the two cities.
Great writer, and a very insightful man. I know this has little to do with that article, but seeing "The Atlantic" as the point of origin on that article reminded me of that, and how true it is that "six degrees of separation" are all there are between us all.
-Rick
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
[b]Recommended by an ex-spook friend -
an extremely informative read about what makes suicide bombers tick:
[url="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_SeptOct_2001/sprinzak.html"]http://www.foreignpolicy.com/issue_SeptOct_2001/sprinzak.html[/url] [/b][/quote]
I think the services of 72(!) virgins in Heaven for martyrs might have something to do with it.
[b] I think the services of 72(!) virgins in Heaven for martyrs might have something to do with it.[/b][/quote]
Only a total NUT would believe that the pleasures of heaven are the same as pleasures of the flesh. I heard that one too, and it made me ill.
*Honey do this. Honey do that.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 09-18-2001).]
[b]I think it would be a far more effective statement to have them wake up in the middle of the night with the rifle-lights of a multilateral special forces team showing in their faces as they drag the terrorists and their leaders to a transport chopper.[/b][/quote]
...except, there's no real chance of there being a coalition special forces team (nor do I think there could be one, for obvious reasons of unit cohesion and so on).
If people think Vietnam was bad, watching the Russians flee Afghanistan should have taught us how immensely bad an idea it would be to put ground forces down and try to go against the Mujahadeen, even special forces...if we can even find bin Laden and keep track of him long enough to take him in.
It's not likely going to happen and, if it does, I don't expect it will go anywhere near as well as people think. IMO, it's a lot more likely we'll see a series of massive air strikes and, if that doesn't work out, grudging ground action that will probably result in quite a few American casualties.
As it is, Germany, France and Russia are already backsliding in any offers of support and are expressing the desire for there to be no attacks at all. Egypt is expressing the same opinion, as is Pakistan (which is why they sent envoys to try and convince the Taliban to turn bin Laden over).
[b]I'd say the less spies we [i]appear[/i] to have, the more [b]good[/b] spies we actually [i]do[/i] have. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img][/B][/quote]
Hasdrubal is right. Our HumInt was castrated and we're relying far too heavily these days on satellite intelligence at the expense of the human end. Even if it wasn't, we wouldn't be able to infiltrate bin Laden's organization.
We'll probably have to depend on Iran, Russia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UAE for any intelligence, if they're even willing to offer it.
Wouldn't that be great mockery of BL: Have the WTC towers be reconstructed by the man's own family. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] Actually, when you think of it, that WOULD make a good statement... hmm...
------------------
Life is full of surprises. The ones reserved for me usually come wearing brass knuckles.
How ?
Easy.
Just the same way the USSR was destroyed, spend spend spend spend spend....
throw enough greebacks at the Taliban and they will cheerfully hand him over, trussed like a Turkey. Foreign aid always has strings of one kind or another.
Get all chummy wummy and build a new US base... just like the one which has become permanent in Chechniya (sp). The UN/US is golobocop... stopping the fighting between the Serbs and Croats...
Why not the Northern alliance and the Taliban... then we'll see if Bin Laden has the nuts to attack a US base on his home turf...
If he does, he's dead.
A commited US/UN force plonked in his midst making peace with and for the locals attacked by his forces would result in him being put on the outer. A protracted stay in the mountains will destroy him. No-one can live in the mountains of Afganistan forever. All the while the CIA or other intelligence groups can sniff out some moles...
If he doesn't attack, well then he's an imasculate loser and the media will destroy him. His followers will lose faith in him and abandon him.
The hard part is commiting ground troops. Casualties are not accepted well. Perhaps after the 5000 odd lost in the WTC, acceptance of losses will be better.
Hmmm.... the meek shall inherit the Earth ?
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
I have a quick question: Is it not in America's interest to destabilize the region? We can then build a military presence in the area. Afganistan is strategically located next to China, and the former soviet republics, Uzbeckestan (sp), and others. Once we annex it to NATO, we can then build up and push into Russia itself, since NATO can, by charter, interfere with countries bordering on NATO member countries.
I've also heard mention of terrorist friendly nations of N. Korea, Iran, Iraq, Lybia and Syria (all of which the US has grudges against, and not easily tied to Bin Laden). If, as President Bush says, "You are either 100% for us, or 100% against us, there are no neutrals in this war," does this not give us the moral duty to attack, invade, and otherwise take control of those countries?
And what about Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Pakistan, and the US itself which funded and trained Bin Laden for his fight against the "Evil Empire"? Or our funding and arming of Iraq during its war with Iran? (One irony is that we're looking into cultivating ties with Iran)...
What about Palistine and Israel? Using the distraction, Israel's invaded Palistine, then delivered the ultimatum to "support a cease fire, and we'll stop operations by the Israeli military."
I can understand the anger and the hurt, but is all of the saber rattling an excuse to destabilize the region further, then waltz in and scoop up all that oil and those natural resources that are just sitting there?
That has been the US modus operendi in the past (Manifest Destiny, anybody).
1. The international community would never support an all-out invasion of the mideast and central Asia.
2. The Cost of that campagin would be too much to bear.
3. "Once we annex it to NATO, we can then build up and push into Russia itself, since NATO can, by charter, interfere with countries bordering on NATO member countries."
Oh dear god no why would we want to push into Russia and start WW3? (assuming that this mid-east invasion dosen't do that for us.)
4. In some areas of the world the U.S. is already viewed as a warmongering empire hell-bent on American hegamony. Why would we wan't to confirm those abbsured opinions?
5. The protest against this in the U.S. would make the ones from the 60's look like a pair of 2 year olds shouting at each other.
6. This would mean the re-instatment of the draft. And as a 20 year old male that is something I do not want to happen.
7. Even if (and this is a big ****ing if) we do complete the campaign we would never be able to hold on to an area that large when the population dosen't want us there.
8. Last it would be just plain wrong and racist to punish the entire Muslim world for this act. The mere thought of it makes me sick to my stomach.
There a million more reasons but I'm tired or typing and I need to get back to work, someone else pick up where I left of for me.
------------------
"Ambassador we all know that the first casulty of war is the truth."
-John Sheridan
[This message has been edited by Ricobirch (edited 09-18-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Ricobirch (edited 09-18-2001).]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
My wife is Chinese.
Not American born, but 100% native.
As you could imagine, our dinnertime conversations on ideology can be...interesting...at times.
But here's the God honest truth.
Any nation right now that thinks it can stand alone as an island amongst the rest of the nations is as stupid as Hydrogen-filled Blimps.
And anyone that thinks that the US is going to enter an open out and out conflict with China is an even bigger moron.
Why?
Money.
Our economies right now are so interlinked that a war between us would be horribly irresponsible for both sides. China provides an amazing percentage of labor to foreign corporations needing cost-effective labor. The U.S. (and others) provide an amazing amount of brainpower to develop these things that are made in China, and the dollars to buy them.
What do you think would happen to Cisco, IBM, HP-Compaq, nVidia; Dell, Hasbro, Mattel, and just about any staple-company that relies on Factories their companies maintain in Southern China if a War broke out? What do you think would happen to the people living in those areas that rely on these companies for income?
You got it. Global economic disaster.
Going even more global, look what happens when any of the world's stock exchanges tanks...all the other exchanges go with it-- Dow, Nasdaq, Tokyo, KL, HK, EU. It's all a big, international money engine.
It is in the best interest of ALL nations to maintain civil, diplomatic relations with Diplomatic solutions to Diplomatic problems for just that reason.
Sure, there are games that are played. For example:
- The Collision beteween the Chinese MIG and the USAF E3 earlier this year.
- The US supporting Taiwan's independent government, and China supporting Cuba.
- The U.S. having troops and bases in South Korea, China in North.
- The Human rights issue (and this is on both sides here--the US has it's problems too).
We're both the same, in that way, playing a diplomatic chess game with each other; it is by no stretch of the imagination a prelude to military aggression or war. Rather, it's the nature of politics- politicians like to posture; and using another country that is big, powerful, and different makes a compelling target (for both sides).
It's just a fact of life.
I'd take it as such, and move on.
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 09-18-2001).]
[b]....as stupid as Hydrogen-filled Blimps.[/b][/quote]
It wasn't hydrogen that made the damned thing explode, same with the [i]Challenger[/i]. Whatever possesed my father to throw away old issues of Popular Mechanics/Science, I'll never know, but sometime in '98 they had an artical on it. Quit spreading uniformed lies!
Another thing that I was thinking of, in my pseudo-intellectual, uber-liberal way: Wasn't it extremely fortunate for Bush that this incident happened when it did?
Monday he was lagging in the popularity polls, the Senate was gearing up to fight his defense budget, environmentalists were preparing to blast him (again), people were bitching about the economy, Congress was again fighting with the VP about the energy commission, the missile defense system, the abandonment of the ABM treaty, Kyoto accord, racism and small arms conferences practically alienated us from the rest of the world.
Tuesday happens, and the environmentalists hush up, nobody's talking about the environment, and the economy (who cares) everybody (that counts anyway) loves us, He's got carte blanche on defense, and congress and the senate are backing him nearly unanimously, and have you seen the polls? 80s-90s... And everybody knows that next it could be nukes or chemicals, so the missile defense shield is vital to our national interests.
It wouldn't surprise me if 10-20 years from now, we find out that he knew what was going to happen, and let it. I think of Roosevelt just aching to get into WWII, after winning on an isolationist platform (Who else recently ran on a neo-isolationist platform) and much evidence points to the conclusion that he knew Pearl Harbor was going to happen, and let it. Germany, who was going out of their way to avoid American targets, had to declare war on America after we declared war on Japan (treaty obligations are a bitch). Didn't NATO countries invoke the mutual defense treaty?
Ain't saying he had anything to do with it, or that he knew about it. Just pointing out his good fortune...
[b] It wasn't hydrogen that made the damned thing explode, same with the [i]Challenger[/i]. Whatever possesed my father to throw away old issues of Popular Mechanics/Science, I'll never know, but sometime in '98 they had an artical on it. Quit spreading uniformed lies![/b][/quote]
It was a defective O-Ring in the solid fuel booster rockets. Once the engines began heating up, the O-Ring either cracked or broke, rather than expanding the way it should have. Things went downhill from there. If I can, I'll find that exact issue of PM. I have at least the last 10 years here. My grandfather had every issue since...ohhh, 1940? 1936? sometime around then. Then, my parents simply tossed them out after his death, as they had no real use. THey deeply regret that.
[b]It just gets me when, say, someone is reviewing a hydrogen powered car and is afraid of a rather harmless gas because of those two myths. Especialy when they are doing it for a magazine that had debunked that myth less then three years before.[/b][/quote]
Er, yes it was. This was well documented, and, well, just about anyone who has one or more years of physics or chemistry knows this. I never mentioned this before, but the Challenger incident (and the causes thereof) were one of the main reasons driving me to get a Mechanical Engineering degree.
Challenger blew up because the SRB o-rings froze and contracted, allowing the hot gasses of the SRB to escape around the ring and cut open the LH2 tank. As a consequense of the resulting leak, the Hydrogen ignited from exposure to flame emitted from the hole in the SRB casing and/or normal engine exhaust. the rest is history. And my state lost Christa McAuliffe in the process because NASA chose to forgo safety to put on a show for the president. Wow. They sure succeeded.
The Hindenburg Ignited due to an electrical potential difference betwwen the blimp and the ground (essentially the same process that causes lightning bolts). When the electricity jumped through the conductive lines of the tether lines, it ignited the hydrogen gas in the dirigible (actually, the Hindenburg was a dirigible, blimps have no frame--my mistake).
That's why since that day Dirigibles/blimps have been filled with N2 Nitrogen and/or helium. Those gasses in the stated forms are pretty much inert.
As to why:
Pure hydrogen (H2), be it gas or liquid, has very weak atomic bonds and combusts explosively when exposed to open flame in an oxygen-available environment (like open air).
We did a little experiment that illustrated this directly in my chem class (waaaay back) in High School.
You may be thinking of Hydrogen Fuel Cells, which generate Hydrogen on demand through a chemical reaction or an electolytic process. They're very safe, but quite expensive.
Also--Remember that if hydrogen didn't have an explosive reaction, it wouldn't make the engine run now, would it? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
-R.
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 09-19-2001).]
[b]I never mentioned this before, but the Challenger incident (and the causes thereof) were one of the main reasons driving me to get a Mechanical Engineering degree.[/b][/quote]
I can testify to that, remembering you mentioning it as one reason you started as an aerospace engineer at WPI.
As for Hindenburg... you can. The reason they used it was because it was far cheaper and easier to produce, despite the huge safety hazard.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras