hey... what can I say.. my formal drama training finished in ninth grade... sorry about the fourth wall.. well... I guess the NPC's can talk to the curtain puller and the props guy in the wings... if the third wall is stage left or right.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Anyways... atleast you knew what I was on about and thats the goal I guess...
ok to enlarge on my metaphor...
'A good Interactive Story is a River'
All rivers have headwaters... places in the mountains where they start, a fan of brooks, rivulets and streams which coalesce and join each other to form a mighty river... Small beginnings, threads of water that twist and turn eventually into each other.
The punter is in/on one of those little rivulets, they start out following just another one of those nameless little trickles in the catchment of the story's river, but they are destined for greater things as the tributaries tithe thier waters together...
The other brooks and streams are often much much bigger than the punters, for they started in the higher peaks from above and before the punters..these creeks carry the other characters, and the story will always see that they flow together. Wether the boats that carry them are freighters loaded to the gunalls with goodness or a Nuclear attack sub full of malice is up to the writer, perhaps they will reach the juncture of the punters river before them, perhaps long after... but one thing always remains the same...
the current.
The river draws them on... and it gets deeper, wider and all the more powerful as it progresses. Perhaps in the high reaches of the river the punter could turn around, go upstream, but now the energy expended to do so is well beyond the worth of doing so.
Villages and bridges cross the water at intervals... and again, they can be full of poison arrow pygmies or friendly fuzzy wuzzies and they might throw flowers from the bridges or perhaps grenades... but still one thing remains under all...
the current.
The villages barter for supplies and information and help the punter on thier way,
or do thier bets to sink them and or eat them. The trees drooping over the water laden with fruit and monkeys provide food... pick the fruit and shoot the monkeys for a casserole.
Ruins and clearings dot the banks, So much can be gleaned about the river and its folk from the past etched on the walls, as much as one gets from the natives themselves and the walls cannot lie as well as the locals.
Some parts of the river gouge thier way through forbidding escarpments and towering cliffs of bassalt where there is simply water and wall... nothing but
the current.
Perhaps it is a white cauldron of rapids or so deep and still it sucks you into fathomless depths...
In other places the water foams with pirhana or the banks are just muddy slides for crocs much longer than the punters boat, so they stay safely inside the staves of thier boat until the banks once again revert to something not quite so forbidding...
On the river flows, a great dam blocks the river to all travellers and the waters spread far and wide... there is much to explore and to do on the lakes, much to learn and it all comes at the same cost as from people and places on the river feeding the lake, here the river is all but lost... until the natives are all blind on the cheap booze you plied them with and they can say nothing more than "GReezonnga" and laugh at you before they fall comatose... and you've shot everything that moves and thier skins hang from the yardarm...and your sick of haulingin fish...
and there isnt a single bauble or legend worth picking up from the banks and islands of the lake system. There is only one place to go...
back to the dam, back to the river... back to..
the current...
The punter has a grim sense of forboding at the same time as he senses the salt on the breeze, the pelicans growing in numbers in the trees. The water is crowded with boats, all bent on tasks perhaps well known or completely foreign to the punter... but they are all, save a few who the punter knows take little interest in life these days... are heading to one place... the mouth of the river, to where people flock... to a riverport, to what is a great city.. by simple deduction of the ammount of traffic plying the water...
The piratical thieves are almost constant, the monsterous barges threaten to crush the punters boat like it was ricepaper, unloading your old service revolver into the face of a pirate with your left, you hold the tiller with your right.
The chances of you seeing the grand city slim with every passing league, it seems the river itself wants to swallow you whole if you do not pick your way through its obelisk sized teeth...The pressure of simple survival becomes more intense than the pressue of the jaws of the crocodile clamped on your best porters thigh as he screams and dissapears over the side... the big sullen thug with the bone through his nose, who joined you long ago on the promise of more booze... kills another dozen pirates with the small tree he calls a club. Unfortunately he makes the mistake of taking the fight to the pirates on board thier vessel just as the captain swings away... the punter makes haste as he looks back into the forlorn face of Mister Bonenose... until of course he resumes caving in skulls...
The punter has barely anything left save his wits and what he's learnt on his journey. It almost comes as no suprise when the competing boats seem to all but dissapear... and a deep bassy rumble begins to build... paddling results in nothing but more sweat... the rumbling becomes louder and louder... the river narrows... now there is nothing but..
the current
The water is alive, rushing to its conclusion... and its conclusion is rumbling... rumbling so much now that it is a a quaking roar....
The punters eyes pop out on stalks....
The river bends....
down....
a gentle arc of perhaps three yards... and the punters icy clarity lets him take in a vista beyond his reckoning... a vast sprawling metropolis of incredible beauty....
as his boat slides with sickening grace over a three thousand league drop into a black bassalt pit...
If the punter survives the fall... the city etched on his mind awaits offering all...offering the punter all he has sought for, nubile young things, riches, bars full of beer and ears eager for his great adventures.
It all awaits him...
What little control the punter has through the tiller makes the difference... falling past rocks like a dragons teeth in this river which at this point.. may as well be the foaming spittle of said dragon... The difference between death and living is black and white, dead or alive, thier are no survivable wounds.
Soiled pants and alive or chunky guacamole...
and almost before it began... it is over...
a sodden and weary punter uses the last of his strength to drag whats left of his hard won trinkets up onto the sweet dry sand... he turns to look at his battered craft... and is on the verge of tears as he watches as it gurgles softly in supplication and capitulation to the water... and sinks stern first... leaving the hasty name he christened her with till the absolute last...
He is lost in quiet reflection...
Until he hears a girlish titter from the bushes... a beautiful girl with a water pitcher glows with a sweet and innocent blush from her hiding place...
She scampers away up the bank on a well trodden stone staircase... which is covered in runes and pictogrammes... much like the ones he saw upriver... but they are different...
hmmm...
but for now....
the city awaits...
and perhaps so does that lithe young deer of a girl...
Well, my $0.02 on all of this is that I think that you MAY be giving AI capabilities a weeeeee bit too much credit.
To borrow a term from "someone I know", it should be pondered with cautious optimism (which is an optimists' way of saying pessimism, I think [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] )
At some point, you WILL need to steer elements to move events in the direction neccessary to pace a story properly. Even ITF had elements that strung the story together (albeit loosly, but by the standards of today's gaming drama, it gave you acres to play in). The loosely structured "mission criteria" were managed by elements of a low-level AI controller, which evaluated current conditions with certain scenarios, events, and setups that were all stored in a huge interactive database. The "game" knew that certain events happened in certain areas and timeframes of the "acts" that were designed to breakup the game (and allow promotions). So, say, for instance, there really wasn't a way for the "climax scenario" to happen as your second rookie mission. It made sure that not only certain things happened in the right time, but also that they happened in the right sequence (if at all).
This is what we loosely called "story engine AI". It allowed variability, but it also "nudged" the universe (and the player) along a certain path for the story-based game. All the elements were free to interact on a microscopic level, giving untold amounts of variation to the Astropolitical makeup of the playing field, but not so much so that the game would spin out of control and nnot allow you to reach "endgame."
Now, because we never finished it, we'll never know just how well that was going to work, but one thing I am certain of is that you can't really drop a bunch of people in a world of automatons without having it revert to the lowest level of activity (i.e. Rampant, nonsensical killing, or exceedingly boring levels of trivial interaction).
Case in point: While I think that "The Sims" and "Black and White" are amazing technical accomplishments, after about 3 hours of playing them, they quickly revert to an entertainment level comparable to watching paint dry.
So, in a nutcshell, to capture and sustain the attention of the player, you have to provide him/her with compelling events and revelations that gently tug at their curiousity, value system, and imagination, but also give them the freedom to explore the vast realm of possibilities within the environment of the game. And finally,in some cases, you may have to implement consequences to curtail actions that would otherwise discombobulate any level of logic to the story's events whatsoever (like "goin' rogue" in ItF).
These are things that you really have to consider in the foundation level of design. Too much freedom can often turn into a curse that is just as bad railing the story to begin with.
Just my $0.02...
-Rick
------------------
[i]"...Never start a fight...but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 11-02-2001).]
SB: [quote]... sorry about the fourth wall.. well... I guess the NPC's can talk to the curtain puller and the props guy in the wings... if the third wall is stage left or right.. [/quote]
Laugh my lily white ass off!
And... kewl story. It kept me entertained - even though it was linear!
Dammit, my code snippit to Biggles converted ":: D" into a smily. Never mind.
To people at large:
Ok, I'm going to generally shut up a lot now. We're driving two ideas against each other, so instead of revving against yours, I shall take my little idea and follow the rocky side-road, letting the big bus that you're all sitting in get past me.
I shall just make two points before I go. I'll quote from Randy simply because it's convenient for me, and I don't want to repeat myself to each person. My points apply to most who have posted on these subjects.
Firstly, I hate having my goals misstated to me, so I shall correct.
[quote]You seem to be interested in developing an open-ended world that can be all things to all people, which can suit whatever their predisposition is, but based on some of the principles of drama.[/quote]
That's interactivity. I thought that was thw whole [i]point[/i]. I've made mention of [i]wishes[/i] such as having an engine that can create its own world for us to play in, but that isn't my current goal.
My goal is just interactivity, with characters, story and drama.
Nobody seems to dispute character interaction.
Story interaction: The idea of cutting a story into many parts and having the plexor draw a few cards in any order isn't interactive enough for me. I believe strongly in process over data, and in letting the plexor have some hand in directing the story, rather than forcing the plexor to choose between triggers.
Drama interaction: What drama is "interactive" when it doesn't respond to the audience's desires? This is the problem I have mentioned with action movies. I don't [i]want[/i] to see a rehash of the "good is good; bad is bad; be good" theme. If I display boredom with a theme, I believe the theme should be changed.
My second point is one that I have made a few times before, and people seem incapable of reading it or remembering it, which I find somewhat frustrating. I have a nagging feeling that people see terms similar to "open ended" (which everyone has been fond of using for me) and automatically thinking "oops, that won't work" without actually [i]listening[/i]. So I shall repeat. In bold.
[quote]I say “some of” because one of the principles of drama is to lead the audience through a rewarding experience of well-wrought, purposeful, escalating dramatic tension, leading to a climax, which affords a purging of emotions. An open-ended experience can't be counted on to do this in a well-wrought way the guarantees the purging of emotions I speak of – pathos.[/quote]
[b]The drama engine [i]will have direction[/i]. I have already agreed that a pure people-simulation does not spawn emergant story or drama. I have stated that the drama engine is programmed such that it [i]knows[/i] that certain events need to happen, and will [i]adjust the world to encourage these.[/i] NPCs will be teleported close to the character if needed. NPCs will have enforced characteristics if needed. Events will occur as needed. The idea is that the "open-ended" world is a basis, a foundation, which a drama engine manipulates to encourage drama.[/b]
Now read it again, yes, repeat, and if there are buzzwords you don't like, or bits you don't understand, then say so, rather than going "ooh, open-ended, drama can't work that way." If you're asking "why shouldn't we say that?" then you still haven't understood my point.
And one more point, added as an optional extra, because I think this embodies the pure basis for the disagreements.
[quote]I see your idea like a combination of a simulated living world (the Sims) where the drama engine directs ad-libbing NPC’s and the plexor can do whatever they want within the world. Who knows what will happen?[/quote]
This is interactivity. Why should we know what will happen? Shouldn't we write games that serve the player, rather than games that serve the designer? Shouldn't a truly [i]interactive[/i] experience cater for the player's desires, rather than enforcing the designer's desires?
Ok, on to more fun things.
Biggles:
[quote]It was champagne actually. One of my friends finished her degree yesterday so we were celebrating in Albert Park. 2 bottles among three people. Oh, and this other girl who kept staring at us so we offered her some champagne. She said no though.[/quote]
Mmmmmm... was it nice champagne? Shame on you though... sure, you were being gallant and kind, but giving away alcohol? Tsk. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
shadow boxer:
Nice imagery. I like the way you write. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[quote]Biggles: Did you get her number?[/quote]
I wasn't the one doing the offering. Besides, 5 minutes later we found out why she refused when some [i]guy[/i] sat down next to her and started kissing her.
I think I have to agree with Grant. We have pretty muched thrashed the story idea to death, at least for now. I personally have nothing more to say on that particular topic, not until I move past the car racing game stage and start doing some proper design work.
I propose some possible new topics:
[list]
[*]3D Graphics (my personal area of major interest as well as story)
[*]Umm...
[*]Optimisation of 3D graphics (something I need to learn stuff on)
[*]Methods for moving the game character around the world, along with things like terrain interaction?
[/list]
None of which are particularly revolutionary but they are things I need to discuss. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] And hey, we did start by discussing AI.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
why thankyou NZ... I try.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
but people... read the story as a metaphor...translate what happens to the punter into any interactive story... the gorges are a metaphor for sections of the game where the story effectively takes the reins to take the storyline forward.... etc etc etc...
Randy :P
you have no idea how much I abhor Survivor... you should have seen me fomaing at the mouth when I saw the standing stone circle, plucked from Druidic lore and dumped into the place where Aboriginal Dreamtime belongs...
not to mention the stupid challenges and all the other crap... I found the whole bloody thing obscene... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] So I'll take your comments as a well intentioned Bowie knife in my writers stomach... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Oh well.... cest la vie... funny thing was I was thinking Victorian Era handle bar mustached Great White Hunter on the Amazon...
drinking tea between blasting anything that moves with a Hollis double rifle...
And one other thing.
Stories are linear. Interactive or no...
They have.....
a beginning >>>>>>> a middle >>>>>> and an end.
Thats three points through which one draws a line...
All this 'freedom' bullshite is just very clever obfuscation... I am in no way demeaning it, quite the contrary... you simply cannot deny 'the current'. Like everyone has said... there has to be a little order or everything dissolves into crud...
Maybe I didnt make enough of the lakes analogy... the places in a game where there is alot of freedom of movement... as opposed to the gorges...
mnyeh... oh well... I suck... too much metaphor.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Like Biggles and Lightey have said...
as far as this thread goes I think we played with it till its fallen off... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
I for one, had fun.... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Hey, SB: I was just tweaking you. I understand your metaphor, and I hate Survivor as well. Just giving you a hard time. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Grant: I wasn't trying to tweak you, though. Sorry if you're upset. I suspect two things: we still don't completely understand each other, and our overall design ideas are not really that far apart.
Having said that, I'm ready to leave this part of the discussion for now.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 11-03-2001).]
No matter. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
We'll be back to it in time, don't worry about that. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Now then. Who knows anything about polygon level collision detection? Cause frankly, it has me really confused...
And that's not to mention how to make an object move over some terrain without falling through (say height maps and I'll hurt you, there have got to be other ways).
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I don't know how the programmers do it in the engines but in a rendering package such as Lightwave, one makes a point polygon object that actually travels the terrain via a plugin that can manage that kind of FK/IK, and the REAL object is parented to it and mimics it's movement. This allows for an object like a Cruise Missile to be positioned above a terrain and still follow it, or a ship that is immersed in the surface of a water terrain to follow the varying height of wave action. These and other examples can be tweeked with spline curve tensions to soften out reactions so you don't get such an exact (jarring) match to the terrain as you transition from one polygon normal to the next.
[This message has been edited by JackN (edited 11-04-2001).]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Won't help with the programming side but my movies are going to look so much better now...
Thanks! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Here's a suggestion for a new topic that's still story/drama related but gets away from the arguments of "this is what we can do, and this is what is impossible":
How should our presentation of story and drama change to cope with the medium of computer games?
I ask this because I believe a lot of people (definately myself included, but I'm not pointing fingers within the forums - this ranges far wider than here) are thinking in terms of movies. But movies have the nice advantage of skipping over a lot of detail that a plexor might well want more control over.
Books have even more freedom - they never have to live up to showing their stories in real time. (Nor does Matrix, but that's a special case. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] ) Books can head off into huge metaphorical waters before heading to port - movies can only enter metaphorical waters if they're based on a metaphorical boat.
A computer game is different. Players are very used to having control over all aspects of their character's lives. Should we keep this level of interactivity, and make sure each part of the character's life is dramatically charged? Or should we give plexors a different level of interactivity, asking them to make the major decisions (such as "today I shall go to work, go drinking with friends, and stumble home about 10pm"... although I shudder to think of a game asking "Where do you want to go today?") and cutting to the interesting scenes? Or some other idea altogether?
This is a nice topic where everyone is correct, all systems can work, and they're all just implementation issues - but major ones worthy of discussion. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
I must say I'm biased towards my second case: assuming control over the boring aspects of a character's life and cutting to the chase. Then again, I've been accused of being a socialist. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] Anyway, I don't plan on having any first-person style 3D space maneuvreing ideas in my games other than in combat. My preference is to cut to the stages where some interaction is likely to happen, and let the plexor choose from there, adventure style. (As in, "let's talk to him," rather than, "let's pick up everything in sight.")
My $0.02 (US, give or take with local inflation rate)
GrantNZ:
Recall Wing Commander III (and others) where after a mission completes (or after launch), you can fly yourself to the next way point, or hit 'autopilot' to go to the next action sequence.
Such a process implies that a 'next action sequence' is known, implying that there is a known set of actions. In a less-flexible environment, how would the game/drama/whatever engine know [i]where[/i] to move the character?
RE: structure
As modern art and modern poetry have shown, there is actually a benefit in having a well defined structure. In fact, it can be argued that working within a rigid structure actually forces you to think more creatively.
RE: changing the topic
Thanks to all contributors, this has really been an enlightening discussion. I wish there were more such topics, and less "GREEN..PURPLE!" type (though they have there place).
I had a dream last night where I traveled to a parallel universe and met a version of myself that was involved in an underground resistance (to some unknown evil empire, I’m sure). But in this parallel universe no one had any emotions. Even though I (myself in our universe) brought with me important information for the resistance, my parallel universe self and his team wouldn’t trust me because I have emotions (strong emotions, since they wouldn’t listen to me).
Which is all beside the point, but this is what made me think of a discussion tangent to Grant's topic.
As I woke up I began thinking about the propagation of information throughout a storyworld – how would this process be implemented? What effects could this propagation of information have on the storyworld?
I don’t know much about programming, but would it work for a piece of narrative information to:
[list]
[*]Attach itself to an NPC
[*]Be flagged to change the personality attributes of an NPC – IF the NPC was flagged as “susceptible”
[*]Have the change in personality attributes due to narrative impact cause the NPC to behave in new ways
[*]Move from being attached to one NPC to being attached to another NPC if the two NPC’s “communicate”.
[*]The narrative material alters as a result of NPC input, but only if the NPC has the correct attributes necessary to modify narrative content.[/list]
It would be interesting to see how this process, the propagation of narrative content throughout a storyworld from NPC to NPC, would effect the evolution of “story” in a sim.
oh dear... now the NPc's talk to each other... next they'll solve the puzzles... smite all the targets and finish the gaem without you...
"Sorry Mister/ess Punter but I took the liberty of talking to Y and then I killed Z who led me to A who...."
As far as dreams go. ( you may know this but hey.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] )
Two things :
Thing one : Rarely are dreams literal... dreams are incredibly symbol heavy, some symbols are universal, others are very specific to just you... sometimes you even dream in the third person... you dream from the perspective of someone else who relates to you... for instance above... someone may see you as disspassionate and not listening to them when in fact you are... and your 'dream guides'/subconcious are/is putting you in thier shoes...which brings up point two
Thing two: Dreams, almost withour exception are trying to point out something that you can/wont/should see in your waking life...especially if you remember them in the morning... because you bring it into your concious day there must be something you should know/understand about the dream that you didn't get...
of course they are also the fantasies invloving cucumbers and Britney Spears ...but, those are there for stress relief and flat out entertainment... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Dream's are cool.... once you work out your own dream symbology... take good note of your dreams, they become powerful tools...your subconcious will often change symbols on you.. ( no-one likes to have thier mystique removed... ), but still...
sometimes your dream symbols are pretty confronting... sleeping with your sister regardless of if you are male or female may just mean you should talk to them more intimately rather than actually getting chiggy...
For me... in dreams... getting shot or putting caps in someone elses arse is all about change... a bullet being a fairly significant change in someones life... so is death...
Dying in a dream is often telling you that you are or are going to face a rather earth shattering change in your waking life.
Even trogglehumpers are good for you...
(Ten points for knowing the reference for the above. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] )
And if you haven't gathered... I like dreams and dream anaylsis...
"Come zit on my cowdgh, and teel me abowd your muzzer."
I like dream analysis too. And I'm forever wondering about dream symbology. I've got great dreams to share – ones with mythological implications, hints of ancient and forgotten civilizations, ones with paranormal content and hints of alien abduction, and ones that will make you wonder about me - but not here.
Maybe we could meet in one of the establishments in the Zocalo, over a bottle of Za-phar red.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Woo! Here we go again!
[b]Grant:[/b]
You raise a very interesting point. It is higly unlikely that the story will be going full-bore 24/7. What happens outside that time? Does the plexor continue on with their usual life? Or does the game jump from one period to another? This is something I have only thought of in terms of "that's a problem to solve" rather than thinking of solutions.
Personally, I don't think I would want to just jump from time to time. That's too much like levels and would break up the experience too much. But then again I don't want to have to play a week's worth of game time just to get from one port to another on a ship.
Another problem would be if the story slows down for a while. There would have to be something for the plexor to do to keep their interest. Maybe go adventuring or something. Otherwise they might get bored and stop playing without waiting to continue the story.
[b]Randy:[/b]
My idea is to have information travel through both rumours and regular news routes (ie newspapers). The plexor should be able to walk up to a "newsstand" and buy a "newspaper" and read it. This would be one way to keep up to date on current events (or as current as they can be). Another method would be rumours, which the plexor would hear from people they know, bartenders, strangers who are willing to talk (eg bar patrons if you buy them a drink).
[quote]Attach itself to an NPC
Be flagged to change the personality attributes of an NPC – IF the NPC was flagged as “susceptible”
Have the change in personality attributes due to narrative impact cause the NPC to behave in new ways
Move from being attached to one NPC to being attached to another NPC if the two NPC’s “communicate”.
The narrative material alters as a result of NPC input, but only if the NPC has the correct attributes necessary to modify narrative content.[/quote]
What you describe there is pretty much how I thought rumours would work. However, I think that each rumour would have a setting determining how much it could change. Some rumours would be important to the story and probably shouldn't change from "The Bad Guys captured some big cheese!" to "The Bad Guys like cheese!". That may be a little extreme but it illustrates my point.
[quote]I like dream analysis too. And I'm forever wondering about dream symbology. I've got great dreams to share – ones with mythological implications, hints of ancient and forgotten civilizations, ones with paranormal content and hints of alien abduction, and ones that will make you wonder about me - but not here. [/quote]
I tend to dream about how life could be, what could be different, or the universes (not worlds) in my head. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Such a process implies that a 'next action sequence' is known, implying that there is a known set of actions. In a less-flexible environment, how would the game/drama/whatever engine know where to move the character?[/quote]
Depends on the interface. If you're basing everything on a FPS engine, it'd be pretty near impossible. If it's more of a "travel where next?" scenario, you can simulate the travels and pause if something interesting happens. It would even be feasible to simulate NPC prodding (for example if the plexor is searching for an NPC that can perform a certain skill), stopping when the plexor character finds a good NPC.
That's the sort of idea I was fishing for. FPS engines would make everything hard. More unusual control systems could lead to drama far better. Then again, FPS could also have its methods, if anyone can suggest any.
[quote]Thanks to all contributors, this has really been an enlightening discussion. I wish there were more such topics, and less "GREEN..PURPLE!" type (though they have there place).[/quote]
What? I'm surprised and amazed. This has been such a flourishing forum of intellect and discussion. How [i]could[/i] such a conversation take place here? I mean, it's [i]obviously[/i] orange.
Randy:
[quote]I had a dream...[/quote]
I dreamt one or two nights ago that I was in a D&D world, and I was watching someone cast fireballs and it was rather interesting to see them in a "realistic" sense - the sort of vision I'm aiming for overall, rather than the very cliched/iconical view most games take. (Does anyone else hate when pre-rendered game cinematics show everything in a much more fluid/flexible/interesting way than the actual in-game actions?) Unfortunately, the caster was a wild mage (BG2/D&D fans only) and one went wrong and knocked us all over. How it got to X-Men next I don't know, but Rogue was cute.
Er. Anyway. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] (Playing Baldur's Gate II during every waking moment for two days in a row may have contributed to that dream.)
[quote]As I woke up I began thinking about the propagation of information throughout a storyworld – how would this process be implemented? What effects could this propagation of information have on the storyworld?[/quote]
One of my aims is to have characters that remembers what is important to that character. If you tell a character something that it deems important, it will remember it. A character will tend to talk about things it deems important. Thus, rumours can spread.
What effects would this have? Well, it would be a good way to simulate plexor-character reputation, if everyone's discussing the latest good deed you did. It could provide an interesting avenue for leaders to spread commands or propoganda. Or [i]countless[/i] other nifty results, none of which I am currently capable of thinking of! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Certainly a topic that deserves more thought.
shadow boxer:
[quote]oh dear... now the NPc's talk to each other... next they'll solve the puzzles... smite all the targets and finish the gaem without you...[/quote]
Leading to the concept of concentrating on letting the plexor create his own goals, rather than just stating "kill the bad guys"...
And also leading the concept of manipulating the world to wipe out the bad guys for you... which could be quite fun!
Biggles:
Have you thought much about the possibility of having some look-up table to identify the landscape polygon closest to a point? That way you can figure out the height of that polygon's vertices...
[quote]You raise a very interesting point. It is higly unlikely that the story will be going full-bore 24/7. What happens outside that time? Does the plexor continue on with their usual life? Or does the game jump from one period to another?[/quote]
One solution is Randy's of making the world entertaining enough in itself, to sustain interest while the story develops behind the scenes. Again, it depends on what interfaces you're relying on.
[quote]The plexor should be able to walk up to a "newsstand" and buy a "newspaper" and read it.[/quote]
That's a cunningly brilliantly expandable idea for simulating knowledge in a nice way. Trace knowledge on a character-by-character basis, until someone with a loud mouth or a journalist gets it, then put it in the newspaper and let [i]all[/i] characters know it. That releases the overhead of having to track that knowledge any more, and guarantees that the knowledge is general.
[This message has been edited by GrantNZ (edited 11-06-2001).]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Exactly. Propagation of knowledge throughout the world is very very important to the experience. Therefore there should be many ways of getting knowledge and they should all be realistic (oooo thunder!). The information shouldn't just be dropped into the plexor's lap, they should have to make some effort to find it (with the exception of someone they know seeing them across a crowded room and rushing up saying "Hey, did you hear...". That would actually be very useful for important story events.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I guess a combination of sleeping only three hours last night, and having just watched Buffy the musical just a bit ago, had my mind working overtime while I was doing the dishes. I was thinking about our days-long discussions about interactive drama, storyworld engines and such. Then I started thinking about the adlib exercises we did in college. And in the soup of these thoughts began to form a system. I don’t know if these ideas will prove to be feasible or worthwhile or even interesting, but I thought I’d throw them out for discussion anyway.
Here’s an idea for a drama-based adlibbing storyworld engine that tries to have the control necessary to create and sustain drama, but still allows the experiencer to have choice in the matter regarding the kind of story it will be, where the story is generated in real time, yet end up having a beginning, middle and end. In other words, an idea that tries to marry the ideas of Grant and Randy.
In order to give the experiencer choice in the matter, before jumping into the storyworld, dropdown menu fields in a database would be filled out. The experiencer would chose from a menu of themes, dramatic situations, from a field of locations, from a field of time-periods, settings, and from a field of genres, etc. Upon entering the final data the storyengine would create a “story situation” based on the experiencer’s data.
There would be “friend” NPC’s, ally NPC’s, antagonist NPC’s, and “extras” NPC’s.
There would be a standard amount of locations with a standard amount of “sets” at these locations.
The dramatic action timeline, which would be generated on the fly, would be divided into three acts, and managed by the drama engine.
The NPC’s would have parameter’s based on Campbell’s hero’s journey studies.
If “friend” NPC’s are in act one they would support the experiencer (if the experiencer was to be the protagonist), would waver, would chicken out, would act as mentors, etc. – do ally kinds of act one things. If in act two (devoted to conflict) the NPC’s would fight, die, change sides, run home, etc. In act one, antagonist NPC’s would be involved in activities that ferment turmoil. In act two they would confront and interfere with the activities of the protagonistic forces in escalating degrees, leading to a showdown with the main antagonist (if it was this kind of a story, and of course there are many other kinds of stories, but they would all follow a 3-act structure – exposition, conflict, resolution).
Beyond the 3-act structure, and the fact that NPC’s have parameters that are tied to the 3-act structure, and the fact that the theme and setting have been determined (by the experiencer) nothing else is known. From here the NPC’s adlib the story, based on their actions, and the input of the experiencer.
The job of the story engine is to throw situations at the NPC’s. The situations would be appropriate for the current act. In act one, for instance, situations would inspire the feeding of exposition to the experiencer and would support the idea of a “need” or goal. In drama a clear goal must be set early on. The story is the struggle to achieve the goal. The goal can be anything, as long as we can relate to it, and would want it ourselves in a similar situation. In act two the story engine would throw situations at the experiencer and NPC’s that inspire conflict.
The job of the drama engine is to shift the parameters of NPC’s based on the movement through acts, and to perhaps incite behavior in NPC’s. For instance, maybe the drama engine would decide that such and such a friend of the experiencer NPC would have a change of heart and defect to the dark side, or suddenly be a coward right when the experiencer needs all the friends he can get.
So to recap, the experiencer selects the theme and setting by filling out fields that have a specific amount of choices (there needs to be some control in order to end up with a design that won’t take forever to build, and will have enough control to guarantee a fun/ moving experience).
NPC’s would be divided into categories like friend/mentor/ ally, extras, and antagonistic minions.
NPC’s would adlib based on the theme, setting, current act, and the nature of NPC they are (ally, extra, antagonistic minion).
The story engine would throw situations at the experiencer and NPC’s in escalating intensity, based on the current act. “Missions” would be the outgrowth of these situations.
The drama engine would manage the behavior parameter’s of NPC’s based on the current act, and incite unexpected behavior in NPC’s to “stir the pot”.
The end of the experience would be when the goal is clear achieved or is clearly not achievable, in which case the experiencer has “failed”.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] I'd do a whole row of [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] smilies, but I know the forum engine won't let me.
Sleep is baaaaaaad. Throw away sleep. Sleep is the death of creativity. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
The system you described is very very very similar to how I envisage mine, and I'm extremely glad you posted it. I'll make some comments about where I diverge:
[quote]In order to give the experiencer choice in the matter, before jumping into the storyworld, dropdown menu fields in a database would be filled out. The experiencer would chose from a menu of themes, dramatic situations, from a field of locations, from a field of time-periods, settings, and from a field of genres, etc. Upon entering the final data the storyengine would create a “story situation” based on the experiencer’s data.[/quote]
This was the job I intended for the storyworld designer. The designer implements important NPC characteristics for his vision (loyalty, charisma, abilities, whatever), implements themes, dramatic devices, stages, etc. The engine would be modular allowing parts to be reused or imported, with the theoretical capability of combining all the parts designed so far into one big storyworld that can handle a heap of themes and detail.
My "story situation" would stem from the designer's boundries on the world - especially the initial conditions. For example, start with Jedi at one end of the world, Sith at the other, and general opposing goals. These conditions could be very strict, or quite loose (leading to more computer-generated story situations).
[quote]There would be “friend” NPC’s, ally NPC’s, antagonist NPC’s, and “extras” NPC’s.[/quote]
I hadn't split NPCs into predefined groups. I understood the importance of having friends/rivals etc, but I leant towards a more dynamic approach where friends were determined by NPCs thinking highly of the plexor-character.
[quote]The NPC’s would have parameter’s based on Campbell’s hero’s journey studies...[/quote]
This is where your education shines above my ideas. I knew the importance of having a library of dramatic devices based on the position in the story, but I hadn't thought about what they could actually [i]be[/i] other than a few examples.
I would add though that the theme's interactivity can be processed partially through the plexor's reactions to NPCs. If an NPC supporting a certain theme is generally ignored by the plexor, then perhaps that theme should be toned down and others accentuated. (This is [i]extremely[/i] generalised.)
Your paragraphs detailing the jobs of the story and drama engines are bang on my designs. Use dramatic ideas to build/continue/conclude story; manipulate NPCs/the world to fuel the drama.
[quote]For instance, maybe the drama engine would decide that such and such a friend of the experiencer NPC would have a change of heart and defect to the dark side, or suddenly be a coward right when the experiencer needs all the friends he can get.[/quote]
The engine needs to be able to write story forwards (NPC planning, drama planning) [i]and[/i] backwards. i.e. If a dramatic idea includes a defecting NPC, the engine should check backwards through history and create whatever background is necessary, perhaps exposing it as a twist that reveals the reason behind the defection and fuels more drama. (Although in preference the drama engine would consider this possibility early, in order to foreshadow etc.)
I'm extremely glad that you've created such a similar design while approaching from the opposite side of the argument.
Now, the big question: Is it feasible?
[This message has been edited by GrantNZ (edited 11-07-2001).]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I would say yes, but only with a large amount of time (like many many years) spent in R&D to develope the necessary AIs to run it.
I think Randy descibed the required system pretty well, but I would personally change a couple of things for my game.
Firstly, I would have preset major NPCs to go with the preset story. Minor NPCs could be generated or pulled out of the general population.
Secondly, I would have all NPCs (with the possible exception of major ones) determine their side by current opinion of each side's goals and ethics, and possibly of the plexor if the plexor is playing a major role. There would need to be limits, though, to prevent NPCs changing sides every five minutes. For example, they might need to experience some major event to push them to the other side.
There would probably be more differences but I need to do more thinking first.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
(I know exactly what you mean Randy... twelve hour days do make one very very weird in the head... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] )
Ahhh fellas... one thing... heres a novel concept that I dont think anyones tried yet...
To pluck a little piece of my universe/game concept...
There is effectively no single player game...
but it is still very much a story based game...
The storyteller is based at the HQ of the games studio... and he/she has to write the story on the fly.. dependent on his prewritten story arc.. and his collection of existant structures in the game universe, 'when the clock was started'...
The game universe in a persistent one of course...
The GM ( and lets face it thats exactly what the story writer will be come... a game master.. responsible for guiding what may be a massive universe... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] ) is "the government" both civil and corporate... from this lofty position he/she doles out portions of the story via the 'media' inside the games world... and perhaps directly via an NPC or two, to one or more of the characters playing inside the game...
The actions and words of the StudioNPCs would drive the story... events unfolding both as a matter of course and character for the SNPC's goals and direction and by what the players do... if the punters do something exceptionally well/way out of 'storypath' then the story would have to adapt to a certain extent...the SPCs would best be served by a megacorp inside the game universe to unify them and give the players a readily identifiable 'common' antagonist... ( and they can fight amongst themselves if they wish... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] )
I should post my whole game concept online to really get the idea across but then I'd have to kill you all... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Seriously guys... have any of you done any roleplaying... and I dont mean a dungeon bash.. I mean serious, into character filme noir angst ridden riding inside a new skin roleplaying...
I think there is a massive potential in some real "story based" roleplaying games online...
blended with some action of course...
Like good roleplaying... it has every potential to get way out of hand... and be incredibly rewarding...
Writing story on the fly is an art... a real art... and man it would be way cool...
And for the player.. what could be more intoxicating than having a very real and direct effect on the game universe as it stands...
SB: I'm familiar with games that have a game master who controls the way the RPG evolves. And of course, since my college background is in theatre, I've been inside the skin of a lot of characters - so I know what that's like. I think you're idea is cool. And being a real-time storyteller at a studio for a MMPOG could be a kewl gig. It would be like JMS writing all of the episodes for five years worth of B5, except in real time. Killer. Whoever gets this gig will have to be seriously into storytelling and sleep deprivation and not apposed to supplementing with drugs. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] - Because it could be a real burn-out situation. Come to think of it – maybe having a small staff of storytellers would be better than one person trying to take it on.
Nevertheless, a bit off topic I think, since I think the topic is trying to come up with storyworld/ drama engines that would assume the role of “game master” or “story master” – I’ve forgotten exactly what they’re usually called.
But if everyone wants the topic to be more inclusive, that’s fine with me too.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 11-07-2001).]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Jack: He gets inside the character's skin and under our skin. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
SB: That sounds like the way that MMORPG games are headed, just not with the millions of other human characters in the world. I'm going more for the isolated computer approach, where the game does not need to talk to the outside world at all. This means that the computer needs to play the role of "story master" rather than a human (apart from the human defining a vague outline for the story).
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Could we start some new threads? We seem to be persuing several different topics all at the same time. It would help (my simple mind) to keep them separate, even though there is cross-pollenation.
Comments
Anyways... atleast you knew what I was on about and thats the goal I guess...
ok to enlarge on my metaphor...
'A good Interactive Story is a River'
All rivers have headwaters... places in the mountains where they start, a fan of brooks, rivulets and streams which coalesce and join each other to form a mighty river... Small beginnings, threads of water that twist and turn eventually into each other.
The punter is in/on one of those little rivulets, they start out following just another one of those nameless little trickles in the catchment of the story's river, but they are destined for greater things as the tributaries tithe thier waters together...
The other brooks and streams are often much much bigger than the punters, for they started in the higher peaks from above and before the punters..these creeks carry the other characters, and the story will always see that they flow together. Wether the boats that carry them are freighters loaded to the gunalls with goodness or a Nuclear attack sub full of malice is up to the writer, perhaps they will reach the juncture of the punters river before them, perhaps long after... but one thing always remains the same...
the current.
The river draws them on... and it gets deeper, wider and all the more powerful as it progresses. Perhaps in the high reaches of the river the punter could turn around, go upstream, but now the energy expended to do so is well beyond the worth of doing so.
Villages and bridges cross the water at intervals... and again, they can be full of poison arrow pygmies or friendly fuzzy wuzzies and they might throw flowers from the bridges or perhaps grenades... but still one thing remains under all...
the current.
The villages barter for supplies and information and help the punter on thier way,
or do thier bets to sink them and or eat them. The trees drooping over the water laden with fruit and monkeys provide food... pick the fruit and shoot the monkeys for a casserole.
Ruins and clearings dot the banks, So much can be gleaned about the river and its folk from the past etched on the walls, as much as one gets from the natives themselves and the walls cannot lie as well as the locals.
Some parts of the river gouge thier way through forbidding escarpments and towering cliffs of bassalt where there is simply water and wall... nothing but
the current.
Perhaps it is a white cauldron of rapids or so deep and still it sucks you into fathomless depths...
In other places the water foams with pirhana or the banks are just muddy slides for crocs much longer than the punters boat, so they stay safely inside the staves of thier boat until the banks once again revert to something not quite so forbidding...
On the river flows, a great dam blocks the river to all travellers and the waters spread far and wide... there is much to explore and to do on the lakes, much to learn and it all comes at the same cost as from people and places on the river feeding the lake, here the river is all but lost... until the natives are all blind on the cheap booze you plied them with and they can say nothing more than "GReezonnga" and laugh at you before they fall comatose... and you've shot everything that moves and thier skins hang from the yardarm...and your sick of haulingin fish...
and there isnt a single bauble or legend worth picking up from the banks and islands of the lake system. There is only one place to go...
back to the dam, back to the river... back to..
the current...
The punter has a grim sense of forboding at the same time as he senses the salt on the breeze, the pelicans growing in numbers in the trees. The water is crowded with boats, all bent on tasks perhaps well known or completely foreign to the punter... but they are all, save a few who the punter knows take little interest in life these days... are heading to one place... the mouth of the river, to where people flock... to a riverport, to what is a great city.. by simple deduction of the ammount of traffic plying the water...
The piratical thieves are almost constant, the monsterous barges threaten to crush the punters boat like it was ricepaper, unloading your old service revolver into the face of a pirate with your left, you hold the tiller with your right.
The chances of you seeing the grand city slim with every passing league, it seems the river itself wants to swallow you whole if you do not pick your way through its obelisk sized teeth...The pressure of simple survival becomes more intense than the pressue of the jaws of the crocodile clamped on your best porters thigh as he screams and dissapears over the side... the big sullen thug with the bone through his nose, who joined you long ago on the promise of more booze... kills another dozen pirates with the small tree he calls a club. Unfortunately he makes the mistake of taking the fight to the pirates on board thier vessel just as the captain swings away... the punter makes haste as he looks back into the forlorn face of Mister Bonenose... until of course he resumes caving in skulls...
The punter has barely anything left save his wits and what he's learnt on his journey. It almost comes as no suprise when the competing boats seem to all but dissapear... and a deep bassy rumble begins to build... paddling results in nothing but more sweat... the rumbling becomes louder and louder... the river narrows... now there is nothing but..
the current
The water is alive, rushing to its conclusion... and its conclusion is rumbling... rumbling so much now that it is a a quaking roar....
The punters eyes pop out on stalks....
The river bends....
down....
a gentle arc of perhaps three yards... and the punters icy clarity lets him take in a vista beyond his reckoning... a vast sprawling metropolis of incredible beauty....
as his boat slides with sickening grace over a three thousand league drop into a black bassalt pit...
If the punter survives the fall... the city etched on his mind awaits offering all...offering the punter all he has sought for, nubile young things, riches, bars full of beer and ears eager for his great adventures.
It all awaits him...
What little control the punter has through the tiller makes the difference... falling past rocks like a dragons teeth in this river which at this point.. may as well be the foaming spittle of said dragon... The difference between death and living is black and white, dead or alive, thier are no survivable wounds.
Soiled pants and alive or chunky guacamole...
and almost before it began... it is over...
a sodden and weary punter uses the last of his strength to drag whats left of his hard won trinkets up onto the sweet dry sand... he turns to look at his battered craft... and is on the verge of tears as he watches as it gurgles softly in supplication and capitulation to the water... and sinks stern first... leaving the hasty name he christened her with till the absolute last...
He is lost in quiet reflection...
Until he hears a girlish titter from the bushes... a beautiful girl with a water pitcher glows with a sweet and innocent blush from her hiding place...
She scampers away up the bank on a well trodden stone staircase... which is covered in runes and pictogrammes... much like the ones he saw upriver... but they are different...
hmmm...
but for now....
the city awaits...
and perhaps so does that lithe young deer of a girl...
To borrow a term from "someone I know", it should be pondered with cautious optimism (which is an optimists' way of saying pessimism, I think [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] )
At some point, you WILL need to steer elements to move events in the direction neccessary to pace a story properly. Even ITF had elements that strung the story together (albeit loosly, but by the standards of today's gaming drama, it gave you acres to play in). The loosely structured "mission criteria" were managed by elements of a low-level AI controller, which evaluated current conditions with certain scenarios, events, and setups that were all stored in a huge interactive database. The "game" knew that certain events happened in certain areas and timeframes of the "acts" that were designed to breakup the game (and allow promotions). So, say, for instance, there really wasn't a way for the "climax scenario" to happen as your second rookie mission. It made sure that not only certain things happened in the right time, but also that they happened in the right sequence (if at all).
This is what we loosely called "story engine AI". It allowed variability, but it also "nudged" the universe (and the player) along a certain path for the story-based game. All the elements were free to interact on a microscopic level, giving untold amounts of variation to the Astropolitical makeup of the playing field, but not so much so that the game would spin out of control and nnot allow you to reach "endgame."
Now, because we never finished it, we'll never know just how well that was going to work, but one thing I am certain of is that you can't really drop a bunch of people in a world of automatons without having it revert to the lowest level of activity (i.e. Rampant, nonsensical killing, or exceedingly boring levels of trivial interaction).
Case in point: While I think that "The Sims" and "Black and White" are amazing technical accomplishments, after about 3 hours of playing them, they quickly revert to an entertainment level comparable to watching paint dry.
So, in a nutcshell, to capture and sustain the attention of the player, you have to provide him/her with compelling events and revelations that gently tug at their curiousity, value system, and imagination, but also give them the freedom to explore the vast realm of possibilities within the environment of the game. And finally,in some cases, you may have to implement consequences to curtail actions that would otherwise discombobulate any level of logic to the story's events whatsoever (like "goin' rogue" in ItF).
These are things that you really have to consider in the foundation level of design. Too much freedom can often turn into a curse that is just as bad railing the story to begin with.
Just my $0.02...
-Rick
------------------
[i]"...Never start a fight...but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 11-02-2001).]
Laugh my lily white ass off!
And... kewl story. It kept me entertained - even though it was linear!
It reminds me of an episode of Survivor.
Rick: Nicely said. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Biggles: Did you get her number?
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 11-03-2001).]
[b]
Rick: Nicely said. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Thanks [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] all I need now is someone to pay me to do it professionally... (grin)
------------------
[i]"...Never start a fight...but [b]always[/b] finish it."[/i]
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 11-03-2001).]
To people at large:
Ok, I'm going to generally shut up a lot now. We're driving two ideas against each other, so instead of revving against yours, I shall take my little idea and follow the rocky side-road, letting the big bus that you're all sitting in get past me.
I shall just make two points before I go. I'll quote from Randy simply because it's convenient for me, and I don't want to repeat myself to each person. My points apply to most who have posted on these subjects.
Firstly, I hate having my goals misstated to me, so I shall correct.
[quote]You seem to be interested in developing an open-ended world that can be all things to all people, which can suit whatever their predisposition is, but based on some of the principles of drama.[/quote]
That's interactivity. I thought that was thw whole [i]point[/i]. I've made mention of [i]wishes[/i] such as having an engine that can create its own world for us to play in, but that isn't my current goal.
My goal is just interactivity, with characters, story and drama.
Nobody seems to dispute character interaction.
Story interaction: The idea of cutting a story into many parts and having the plexor draw a few cards in any order isn't interactive enough for me. I believe strongly in process over data, and in letting the plexor have some hand in directing the story, rather than forcing the plexor to choose between triggers.
Drama interaction: What drama is "interactive" when it doesn't respond to the audience's desires? This is the problem I have mentioned with action movies. I don't [i]want[/i] to see a rehash of the "good is good; bad is bad; be good" theme. If I display boredom with a theme, I believe the theme should be changed.
My second point is one that I have made a few times before, and people seem incapable of reading it or remembering it, which I find somewhat frustrating. I have a nagging feeling that people see terms similar to "open ended" (which everyone has been fond of using for me) and automatically thinking "oops, that won't work" without actually [i]listening[/i]. So I shall repeat. In bold.
[quote]I say “some of” because one of the principles of drama is to lead the audience through a rewarding experience of well-wrought, purposeful, escalating dramatic tension, leading to a climax, which affords a purging of emotions. An open-ended experience can't be counted on to do this in a well-wrought way the guarantees the purging of emotions I speak of – pathos.[/quote]
[b]The drama engine [i]will have direction[/i]. I have already agreed that a pure people-simulation does not spawn emergant story or drama. I have stated that the drama engine is programmed such that it [i]knows[/i] that certain events need to happen, and will [i]adjust the world to encourage these.[/i] NPCs will be teleported close to the character if needed. NPCs will have enforced characteristics if needed. Events will occur as needed. The idea is that the "open-ended" world is a basis, a foundation, which a drama engine manipulates to encourage drama.[/b]
Now read it again, yes, repeat, and if there are buzzwords you don't like, or bits you don't understand, then say so, rather than going "ooh, open-ended, drama can't work that way." If you're asking "why shouldn't we say that?" then you still haven't understood my point.
And one more point, added as an optional extra, because I think this embodies the pure basis for the disagreements.
[quote]I see your idea like a combination of a simulated living world (the Sims) where the drama engine directs ad-libbing NPC’s and the plexor can do whatever they want within the world. Who knows what will happen?[/quote]
This is interactivity. Why should we know what will happen? Shouldn't we write games that serve the player, rather than games that serve the designer? Shouldn't a truly [i]interactive[/i] experience cater for the player's desires, rather than enforcing the designer's desires?
Ok, on to more fun things.
Biggles:
[quote]It was champagne actually. One of my friends finished her degree yesterday so we were celebrating in Albert Park. 2 bottles among three people. Oh, and this other girl who kept staring at us so we offered her some champagne. She said no though.[/quote]
Mmmmmm... was it nice champagne? Shame on you though... sure, you were being gallant and kind, but giving away alcohol? Tsk. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
shadow boxer:
Nice imagery. I like the way you write. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
I wasn't the one doing the offering. Besides, 5 minutes later we found out why she refused when some [i]guy[/i] sat down next to her and started kissing her.
I think I have to agree with Grant. We have pretty muched thrashed the story idea to death, at least for now. I personally have nothing more to say on that particular topic, not until I move past the car racing game stage and start doing some proper design work.
I propose some possible new topics:
[list]
[*]3D Graphics (my personal area of major interest as well as story)
[*]Umm...
[*]Optimisation of 3D graphics (something I need to learn stuff on)
[*]Methods for moving the game character around the world, along with things like terrain interaction?
[/list]
None of which are particularly revolutionary but they are things I need to discuss. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] And hey, we did start by discussing AI.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
but people... read the story as a metaphor...translate what happens to the punter into any interactive story... the gorges are a metaphor for sections of the game where the story effectively takes the reins to take the storyline forward.... etc etc etc...
Randy :P
you have no idea how much I abhor Survivor... you should have seen me fomaing at the mouth when I saw the standing stone circle, plucked from Druidic lore and dumped into the place where Aboriginal Dreamtime belongs...
not to mention the stupid challenges and all the other crap... I found the whole bloody thing obscene... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] So I'll take your comments as a well intentioned Bowie knife in my writers stomach... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Oh well.... cest la vie... funny thing was I was thinking Victorian Era handle bar mustached Great White Hunter on the Amazon...
drinking tea between blasting anything that moves with a Hollis double rifle...
And one other thing.
Stories are linear. Interactive or no...
They have.....
a beginning >>>>>>> a middle >>>>>> and an end.
Thats three points through which one draws a line...
All this 'freedom' bullshite is just very clever obfuscation... I am in no way demeaning it, quite the contrary... you simply cannot deny 'the current'. Like everyone has said... there has to be a little order or everything dissolves into crud...
Maybe I didnt make enough of the lakes analogy... the places in a game where there is alot of freedom of movement... as opposed to the gorges...
mnyeh... oh well... I suck... too much metaphor.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Like Biggles and Lightey have said...
as far as this thread goes I think we played with it till its fallen off... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
I for one, had fun.... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
thankyou one and all
Grant: I wasn't trying to tweak you, though. Sorry if you're upset. I suspect two things: we still don't completely understand each other, and our overall design ideas are not really that far apart.
Having said that, I'm ready to leave this part of the discussion for now.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 11-03-2001).]
No matter. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Now then. Who knows anything about polygon level collision detection? Cause frankly, it has me really confused...
And that's not to mention how to make an object move over some terrain without falling through (say height maps and I'll hurt you, there have got to be other ways).
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I don't know how the programmers do it in the engines but in a rendering package such as Lightwave, one makes a point polygon object that actually travels the terrain via a plugin that can manage that kind of FK/IK, and the REAL object is parented to it and mimics it's movement. This allows for an object like a Cruise Missile to be positioned above a terrain and still follow it, or a ship that is immersed in the surface of a water terrain to follow the varying height of wave action. These and other examples can be tweeked with spline curve tensions to soften out reactions so you don't get such an exact (jarring) match to the terrain as you transition from one polygon normal to the next.
Maybe that will help, maybe not...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by JackN (edited 11-04-2001).]
Thanks! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
How should our presentation of story and drama change to cope with the medium of computer games?
I ask this because I believe a lot of people (definately myself included, but I'm not pointing fingers within the forums - this ranges far wider than here) are thinking in terms of movies. But movies have the nice advantage of skipping over a lot of detail that a plexor might well want more control over.
Books have even more freedom - they never have to live up to showing their stories in real time. (Nor does Matrix, but that's a special case. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] ) Books can head off into huge metaphorical waters before heading to port - movies can only enter metaphorical waters if they're based on a metaphorical boat.
A computer game is different. Players are very used to having control over all aspects of their character's lives. Should we keep this level of interactivity, and make sure each part of the character's life is dramatically charged? Or should we give plexors a different level of interactivity, asking them to make the major decisions (such as "today I shall go to work, go drinking with friends, and stumble home about 10pm"... although I shudder to think of a game asking "Where do you want to go today?") and cutting to the interesting scenes? Or some other idea altogether?
This is a nice topic where everyone is correct, all systems can work, and they're all just implementation issues - but major ones worthy of discussion. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
I must say I'm biased towards my second case: assuming control over the boring aspects of a character's life and cutting to the chase. Then again, I've been accused of being a socialist. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] Anyway, I don't plan on having any first-person style 3D space maneuvreing ideas in my games other than in combat. My preference is to cut to the stages where some interaction is likely to happen, and let the plexor choose from there, adventure style. (As in, "let's talk to him," rather than, "let's pick up everything in sight.")
Any ideas?
GrantNZ:
Recall Wing Commander III (and others) where after a mission completes (or after launch), you can fly yourself to the next way point, or hit 'autopilot' to go to the next action sequence.
Such a process implies that a 'next action sequence' is known, implying that there is a known set of actions. In a less-flexible environment, how would the game/drama/whatever engine know [i]where[/i] to move the character?
RE: structure
As modern art and modern poetry have shown, there is actually a benefit in having a well defined structure. In fact, it can be argued that working within a rigid structure actually forces you to think more creatively.
RE: changing the topic
Thanks to all contributors, this has really been an enlightening discussion. I wish there were more such topics, and less "GREEN..PURPLE!" type (though they have there place).
------------------
bobo
<*>
B5:ITF
Which is all beside the point, but this is what made me think of a discussion tangent to Grant's topic.
As I woke up I began thinking about the propagation of information throughout a storyworld – how would this process be implemented? What effects could this propagation of information have on the storyworld?
I don’t know much about programming, but would it work for a piece of narrative information to:
[list]
[*]Attach itself to an NPC
[*]Be flagged to change the personality attributes of an NPC – IF the NPC was flagged as “susceptible”
[*]Have the change in personality attributes due to narrative impact cause the NPC to behave in new ways
[*]Move from being attached to one NPC to being attached to another NPC if the two NPC’s “communicate”.
[*]The narrative material alters as a result of NPC input, but only if the NPC has the correct attributes necessary to modify narrative content.[/list]
It would be interesting to see how this process, the propagation of narrative content throughout a storyworld from NPC to NPC, would effect the evolution of “story” in a sim.
"Sorry Mister/ess Punter but I took the liberty of talking to Y and then I killed Z who led me to A who...."
As far as dreams go. ( you may know this but hey.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] )
Two things :
Thing one : Rarely are dreams literal... dreams are incredibly symbol heavy, some symbols are universal, others are very specific to just you... sometimes you even dream in the third person... you dream from the perspective of someone else who relates to you... for instance above... someone may see you as disspassionate and not listening to them when in fact you are... and your 'dream guides'/subconcious are/is putting you in thier shoes...which brings up point two
Thing two: Dreams, almost withour exception are trying to point out something that you can/wont/should see in your waking life...especially if you remember them in the morning... because you bring it into your concious day there must be something you should know/understand about the dream that you didn't get...
of course they are also the fantasies invloving cucumbers and Britney Spears ...but, those are there for stress relief and flat out entertainment... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Dream's are cool.... once you work out your own dream symbology... take good note of your dreams, they become powerful tools...your subconcious will often change symbols on you.. ( no-one likes to have thier mystique removed... ), but still...
sometimes your dream symbols are pretty confronting... sleeping with your sister regardless of if you are male or female may just mean you should talk to them more intimately rather than actually getting chiggy...
For me... in dreams... getting shot or putting caps in someone elses arse is all about change... a bullet being a fairly significant change in someones life... so is death...
Dying in a dream is often telling you that you are or are going to face a rather earth shattering change in your waking life.
Even trogglehumpers are good for you...
(Ten points for knowing the reference for the above. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] )
And if you haven't gathered... I like dreams and dream anaylsis...
"Come zit on my cowdgh, and teel me abowd your muzzer."
nyuk nyuk nyuk...
Maybe we could meet in one of the establishments in the Zocalo, over a bottle of Za-phar red.
[b]Grant:[/b]
You raise a very interesting point. It is higly unlikely that the story will be going full-bore 24/7. What happens outside that time? Does the plexor continue on with their usual life? Or does the game jump from one period to another? This is something I have only thought of in terms of "that's a problem to solve" rather than thinking of solutions.
Personally, I don't think I would want to just jump from time to time. That's too much like levels and would break up the experience too much. But then again I don't want to have to play a week's worth of game time just to get from one port to another on a ship.
Another problem would be if the story slows down for a while. There would have to be something for the plexor to do to keep their interest. Maybe go adventuring or something. Otherwise they might get bored and stop playing without waiting to continue the story.
[b]Randy:[/b]
My idea is to have information travel through both rumours and regular news routes (ie newspapers). The plexor should be able to walk up to a "newsstand" and buy a "newspaper" and read it. This would be one way to keep up to date on current events (or as current as they can be). Another method would be rumours, which the plexor would hear from people they know, bartenders, strangers who are willing to talk (eg bar patrons if you buy them a drink).
[quote]Attach itself to an NPC
Be flagged to change the personality attributes of an NPC – IF the NPC was flagged as “susceptible”
Have the change in personality attributes due to narrative impact cause the NPC to behave in new ways
Move from being attached to one NPC to being attached to another NPC if the two NPC’s “communicate”.
The narrative material alters as a result of NPC input, but only if the NPC has the correct attributes necessary to modify narrative content.[/quote]
What you describe there is pretty much how I thought rumours would work. However, I think that each rumour would have a setting determining how much it could change. Some rumours would be important to the story and probably shouldn't change from "The Bad Guys captured some big cheese!" to "The Bad Guys like cheese!". That may be a little extreme but it illustrates my point.
[quote]I like dream analysis too. And I'm forever wondering about dream symbology. I've got great dreams to share – ones with mythological implications, hints of ancient and forgotten civilizations, ones with paranormal content and hints of alien abduction, and ones that will make you wonder about me - but not here. [/quote]
I tend to dream about how life could be, what could be different, or the universes (not worlds) in my head. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Such a process implies that a 'next action sequence' is known, implying that there is a known set of actions. In a less-flexible environment, how would the game/drama/whatever engine know where to move the character?[/quote]
Depends on the interface. If you're basing everything on a FPS engine, it'd be pretty near impossible. If it's more of a "travel where next?" scenario, you can simulate the travels and pause if something interesting happens. It would even be feasible to simulate NPC prodding (for example if the plexor is searching for an NPC that can perform a certain skill), stopping when the plexor character finds a good NPC.
That's the sort of idea I was fishing for. FPS engines would make everything hard. More unusual control systems could lead to drama far better. Then again, FPS could also have its methods, if anyone can suggest any.
[quote]Thanks to all contributors, this has really been an enlightening discussion. I wish there were more such topics, and less "GREEN..PURPLE!" type (though they have there place).[/quote]
What? I'm surprised and amazed. This has been such a flourishing forum of intellect and discussion. How [i]could[/i] such a conversation take place here? I mean, it's [i]obviously[/i] orange.
Randy:
[quote]I had a dream...[/quote]
I dreamt one or two nights ago that I was in a D&D world, and I was watching someone cast fireballs and it was rather interesting to see them in a "realistic" sense - the sort of vision I'm aiming for overall, rather than the very cliched/iconical view most games take. (Does anyone else hate when pre-rendered game cinematics show everything in a much more fluid/flexible/interesting way than the actual in-game actions?) Unfortunately, the caster was a wild mage (BG2/D&D fans only) and one went wrong and knocked us all over. How it got to X-Men next I don't know, but Rogue was cute.
Er. Anyway. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] (Playing Baldur's Gate II during every waking moment for two days in a row may have contributed to that dream.)
[quote]As I woke up I began thinking about the propagation of information throughout a storyworld – how would this process be implemented? What effects could this propagation of information have on the storyworld?[/quote]
One of my aims is to have characters that remembers what is important to that character. If you tell a character something that it deems important, it will remember it. A character will tend to talk about things it deems important. Thus, rumours can spread.
What effects would this have? Well, it would be a good way to simulate plexor-character reputation, if everyone's discussing the latest good deed you did. It could provide an interesting avenue for leaders to spread commands or propoganda. Or [i]countless[/i] other nifty results, none of which I am currently capable of thinking of! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Certainly a topic that deserves more thought.
shadow boxer:
[quote]oh dear... now the NPc's talk to each other... next they'll solve the puzzles... smite all the targets and finish the gaem without you...[/quote]
Leading to the concept of concentrating on letting the plexor create his own goals, rather than just stating "kill the bad guys"...
And also leading the concept of manipulating the world to wipe out the bad guys for you... which could be quite fun!
Biggles:
Have you thought much about the possibility of having some look-up table to identify the landscape polygon closest to a point? That way you can figure out the height of that polygon's vertices...
[quote]You raise a very interesting point. It is higly unlikely that the story will be going full-bore 24/7. What happens outside that time? Does the plexor continue on with their usual life? Or does the game jump from one period to another?[/quote]
One solution is Randy's of making the world entertaining enough in itself, to sustain interest while the story develops behind the scenes. Again, it depends on what interfaces you're relying on.
[quote]The plexor should be able to walk up to a "newsstand" and buy a "newspaper" and read it.[/quote]
That's a cunningly brilliantly expandable idea for simulating knowledge in a nice way. Trace knowledge on a character-by-character basis, until someone with a loud mouth or a journalist gets it, then put it in the newspaper and let [i]all[/i] characters know it. That releases the overhead of having to track that knowledge any more, and guarantees that the knowledge is general.
[This message has been edited by GrantNZ (edited 11-06-2001).]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Here’s an idea for a drama-based adlibbing storyworld engine that tries to have the control necessary to create and sustain drama, but still allows the experiencer to have choice in the matter regarding the kind of story it will be, where the story is generated in real time, yet end up having a beginning, middle and end. In other words, an idea that tries to marry the ideas of Grant and Randy.
In order to give the experiencer choice in the matter, before jumping into the storyworld, dropdown menu fields in a database would be filled out. The experiencer would chose from a menu of themes, dramatic situations, from a field of locations, from a field of time-periods, settings, and from a field of genres, etc. Upon entering the final data the storyengine would create a “story situation” based on the experiencer’s data.
There would be “friend” NPC’s, ally NPC’s, antagonist NPC’s, and “extras” NPC’s.
There would be a standard amount of locations with a standard amount of “sets” at these locations.
The dramatic action timeline, which would be generated on the fly, would be divided into three acts, and managed by the drama engine.
The NPC’s would have parameter’s based on Campbell’s hero’s journey studies.
If “friend” NPC’s are in act one they would support the experiencer (if the experiencer was to be the protagonist), would waver, would chicken out, would act as mentors, etc. – do ally kinds of act one things. If in act two (devoted to conflict) the NPC’s would fight, die, change sides, run home, etc. In act one, antagonist NPC’s would be involved in activities that ferment turmoil. In act two they would confront and interfere with the activities of the protagonistic forces in escalating degrees, leading to a showdown with the main antagonist (if it was this kind of a story, and of course there are many other kinds of stories, but they would all follow a 3-act structure – exposition, conflict, resolution).
Beyond the 3-act structure, and the fact that NPC’s have parameters that are tied to the 3-act structure, and the fact that the theme and setting have been determined (by the experiencer) nothing else is known. From here the NPC’s adlib the story, based on their actions, and the input of the experiencer.
The job of the story engine is to throw situations at the NPC’s. The situations would be appropriate for the current act. In act one, for instance, situations would inspire the feeding of exposition to the experiencer and would support the idea of a “need” or goal. In drama a clear goal must be set early on. The story is the struggle to achieve the goal. The goal can be anything, as long as we can relate to it, and would want it ourselves in a similar situation. In act two the story engine would throw situations at the experiencer and NPC’s that inspire conflict.
The job of the drama engine is to shift the parameters of NPC’s based on the movement through acts, and to perhaps incite behavior in NPC’s. For instance, maybe the drama engine would decide that such and such a friend of the experiencer NPC would have a change of heart and defect to the dark side, or suddenly be a coward right when the experiencer needs all the friends he can get.
So to recap, the experiencer selects the theme and setting by filling out fields that have a specific amount of choices (there needs to be some control in order to end up with a design that won’t take forever to build, and will have enough control to guarantee a fun/ moving experience).
NPC’s would be divided into categories like friend/mentor/ ally, extras, and antagonistic minions.
NPC’s would adlib based on the theme, setting, current act, and the nature of NPC they are (ally, extra, antagonistic minion).
The story engine would throw situations at the experiencer and NPC’s in escalating intensity, based on the current act. “Missions” would be the outgrowth of these situations.
The drama engine would manage the behavior parameter’s of NPC’s based on the current act, and incite unexpected behavior in NPC’s to “stir the pot”.
The end of the experience would be when the goal is clear achieved or is clearly not achievable, in which case the experiencer has “failed”.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] I'd do a whole row of [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] smilies, but I know the forum engine won't let me.
Sleep is baaaaaaad. Throw away sleep. Sleep is the death of creativity. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
The system you described is very very very similar to how I envisage mine, and I'm extremely glad you posted it. I'll make some comments about where I diverge:
[quote]In order to give the experiencer choice in the matter, before jumping into the storyworld, dropdown menu fields in a database would be filled out. The experiencer would chose from a menu of themes, dramatic situations, from a field of locations, from a field of time-periods, settings, and from a field of genres, etc. Upon entering the final data the storyengine would create a “story situation” based on the experiencer’s data.[/quote]
This was the job I intended for the storyworld designer. The designer implements important NPC characteristics for his vision (loyalty, charisma, abilities, whatever), implements themes, dramatic devices, stages, etc. The engine would be modular allowing parts to be reused or imported, with the theoretical capability of combining all the parts designed so far into one big storyworld that can handle a heap of themes and detail.
My "story situation" would stem from the designer's boundries on the world - especially the initial conditions. For example, start with Jedi at one end of the world, Sith at the other, and general opposing goals. These conditions could be very strict, or quite loose (leading to more computer-generated story situations).
[quote]There would be “friend” NPC’s, ally NPC’s, antagonist NPC’s, and “extras” NPC’s.[/quote]
I hadn't split NPCs into predefined groups. I understood the importance of having friends/rivals etc, but I leant towards a more dynamic approach where friends were determined by NPCs thinking highly of the plexor-character.
[quote]The NPC’s would have parameter’s based on Campbell’s hero’s journey studies...[/quote]
This is where your education shines above my ideas. I knew the importance of having a library of dramatic devices based on the position in the story, but I hadn't thought about what they could actually [i]be[/i] other than a few examples.
I would add though that the theme's interactivity can be processed partially through the plexor's reactions to NPCs. If an NPC supporting a certain theme is generally ignored by the plexor, then perhaps that theme should be toned down and others accentuated. (This is [i]extremely[/i] generalised.)
Your paragraphs detailing the jobs of the story and drama engines are bang on my designs. Use dramatic ideas to build/continue/conclude story; manipulate NPCs/the world to fuel the drama.
[quote]For instance, maybe the drama engine would decide that such and such a friend of the experiencer NPC would have a change of heart and defect to the dark side, or suddenly be a coward right when the experiencer needs all the friends he can get.[/quote]
The engine needs to be able to write story forwards (NPC planning, drama planning) [i]and[/i] backwards. i.e. If a dramatic idea includes a defecting NPC, the engine should check backwards through history and create whatever background is necessary, perhaps exposing it as a twist that reveals the reason behind the defection and fuels more drama. (Although in preference the drama engine would consider this possibility early, in order to foreshadow etc.)
I'm extremely glad that you've created such a similar design while approaching from the opposite side of the argument.
Now, the big question: Is it feasible?
[This message has been edited by GrantNZ (edited 11-07-2001).]
I think Randy descibed the required system pretty well, but I would personally change a couple of things for my game.
Firstly, I would have preset major NPCs to go with the preset story. Minor NPCs could be generated or pulled out of the general population.
Secondly, I would have all NPCs (with the possible exception of major ones) determine their side by current opinion of each side's goals and ethics, and possibly of the plexor if the plexor is playing a major role. There would need to be limits, though, to prevent NPCs changing sides every five minutes. For example, they might need to experience some major event to push them to the other side.
There would probably be more differences but I need to do more thinking first.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Ahhh fellas... one thing... heres a novel concept that I dont think anyones tried yet...
To pluck a little piece of my universe/game concept...
There is effectively no single player game...
but it is still very much a story based game...
The storyteller is based at the HQ of the games studio... and he/she has to write the story on the fly.. dependent on his prewritten story arc.. and his collection of existant structures in the game universe, 'when the clock was started'...
The game universe in a persistent one of course...
The GM ( and lets face it thats exactly what the story writer will be come... a game master.. responsible for guiding what may be a massive universe... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] ) is "the government" both civil and corporate... from this lofty position he/she doles out portions of the story via the 'media' inside the games world... and perhaps directly via an NPC or two, to one or more of the characters playing inside the game...
The actions and words of the StudioNPCs would drive the story... events unfolding both as a matter of course and character for the SNPC's goals and direction and by what the players do... if the punters do something exceptionally well/way out of 'storypath' then the story would have to adapt to a certain extent...the SPCs would best be served by a megacorp inside the game universe to unify them and give the players a readily identifiable 'common' antagonist... ( and they can fight amongst themselves if they wish... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] )
I should post my whole game concept online to really get the idea across but then I'd have to kill you all... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Seriously guys... have any of you done any roleplaying... and I dont mean a dungeon bash.. I mean serious, into character filme noir angst ridden riding inside a new skin roleplaying...
I think there is a massive potential in some real "story based" roleplaying games online...
blended with some action of course...
Like good roleplaying... it has every potential to get way out of hand... and be incredibly rewarding...
Writing story on the fly is an art... a real art... and man it would be way cool...
And for the player.. what could be more intoxicating than having a very real and direct effect on the game universe as it stands...
lovely... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Nevertheless, a bit off topic I think, since I think the topic is trying to come up with storyworld/ drama engines that would assume the role of “game master” or “story master” – I’ve forgotten exactly what they’re usually called.
But if everyone wants the topic to be more inclusive, that’s fine with me too.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 11-07-2001).]
Mwah hah hah hah!
Just kiding!
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
SB: That sounds like the way that MMORPG games are headed, just not with the millions of other human characters in the world. I'm going more for the isolated computer approach, where the game does not need to talk to the outside world at all. This means that the computer needs to play the role of "story master" rather than a human (apart from the human defining a vague outline for the story).
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
------------------
bobo
<*>
B5:ITF