[quote]Originally posted by Konrad:
[b]
As for Bush, .......That and he's got a higher IQ than the majority. [/b][/quote]
Whatever I say to that I would be attacking one or anyone.
[quote]Originally posted by Konrad:
[b]
I could start attacking Queen Margrethe II or Prime Minister Rasmussen of Denmark just as easily, and be just as lame.
[/b][/quote]
Well, it's actually too bad the Queen doesn't really have a big say in Danish politics - she's rather intelligent as the matter of fact. The Danish Prime Minister - errr...difficult for me to comment on - he isn't exactly the most popular guy in Denmark. I'm not going to armwrestle over who's the most intelligent leader - it's for no use. But for a man who's president to say: [i]"I believe the human being and fish can coexist peacefully"[/i] and [i]"I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate
what I believe and what I believe - I believe what I believe is right."[/i] isn't exactly comforting. This isn't just two lines where it went wrong, if he at least laughs at the things he say you'd be able to take him more seriously.
My fingers are crossed that the civilized countries in the world won't get converted into a place where the citizens are also the police with similar powers and trust you can no one. Then you'd be looking at a society where you can get decapitated for farting in public.
------------------
Thomas Banner
[url="http://www.3dfrontier.com/~banner/"]Diverse 3D[/url]
[url="http://www.spacecadet.dk/"]Animator - Space Cadet[/url]
[This message has been edited by Banner (edited 07-18-2002).]
What the Citizens Corps involves is the establishment of a branch of the
government which will solicit information from various sources -- none of whom
are authorized peace officers or in any way official individuals trained in
detection -- and take that information, gather it, disseminate it internally,
and track that information about people who may not have anything whatsoever to
do with anything in the smallest regard concerning terrorism.
Who gets this information? What will they be doing with it? How will it be
organized and disseminated? What stops someone from sending along unreliable
or false information in order to get someone in trouble? Who decides what is
"suspicious behavior?" And you the person being cataloged have NO way of
knowing what's in that file or that there even IS a file...further, this agency
will be free from FOIA discovery, so there's no way to determine what the
government has on you, if anything. The potential for abuse is mind-boggling.
The way the country has always worked is that if someone sees something
suspicious, they report it to the local police, who investigate it. That's how
our system has functioned for a very long time and successfully.
The acts of 9/11 should not lead us to throw out the very aspects of our
American system that brought their attack in the first place, the ideals that
we are, in principal, defending.
We've seen this before, in the McCarthy period. I'd hoped we had become smart
enough as a people not to fall for the okey-doke a second time. I was wrong.
jms
(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2002 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
[/quote]
[This message has been edited by ZocaloHobo (edited 07-22-2002).]
[quote]Originally posted by ZocaloHobo:
[b]Caught this post from JMS from Usenet....
This misses the point by a mile.
(snip)
[/b][/quote]
What do you mean, "misses the point" That *IS* the point and JMS has made the point eloquently. This TIPS program could turn our country into a police state.
While I consider JMS a good writer, he is NOT an official source for information on the matter in any way. That's spreading bad information and it should be taken with a grain of salt.
(I can hear the Canadians, Europeans, and a few US citizens freaking out and getting ready to flame already...) I agree that caution and vigilance is warranted, however what he did is out of line and in error.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Out of line how?
I think that "misses the point" part is part of JMS's post. Use quote tags, people!
------------------
[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
Rather than have police reports going to the local precincts and then dying in a pile, don't you think it would be better if they went to a central source where they could at least do something!
A fertilizer delivery truck driver is a worthy source for identifying odd behavior because he has a routine pattern and knows whom usually gets fertilizer and when. He also has a hazardous chemical DCL and has had a background check done.
Here is how I see it. If a fertilizer delivery truck driver were to report strange deliveries to a non-agricultural address to the police it would most likely die in red tape.
If the fertilizer truck driver, were to fill out a report that a strange group was buying large amounts of fertilizer and send it to the central agency the report would go into a central computer with some kind of "red flag" algorithm. (Guess what folks the Fed. has been doing that kind of thing for years for phone and e-mail messages.) That report combines with another report from a prima-chord distributor because the deliveries are to different addresses but the same cell phone number, that sets off the red flag! The FBI or who ever swing into action to investigate further. A potential foreign or domestic terrorist act has been averted.
I don't see a problem there, and it works better than just reporting to the police, who have to much to worry about already: murders, rape, robbery, etc. If similar reports are already being made why not put them to productive use!
[quote]Originally posted by Messiah:
[b]I made that jump bacause many of my arab friends have gotten into strange scenarios of terrorist accusations.[/b][/quote]
Has this happened in Sweden or in USA? If in Sweden, aren't you then just projecting Swedish problems on USA, hmmm?
One of those incidents were in Georgia. Another were in California somewhere, never found out exactly where.
------------------
Passive fields. January two thousand and twelve. A nation that stands alone. Cold voices, faces pale, Gathered unto their judgement day. Such words remain unspoken. Such pride remains unbroken. Just mothers to stand in vain and cry. Tears and medals in the rain. Shall I recall when justice did prevail? No reason to be found why reason did fail. The all clear resounding. The way was clear to rebuild this land. Shall I call on you to guide me well, To see our hopes and dreams fulfilled? On this day of our ascension.
It happens all the time... I go to university in North Dakota, and I know many Arab, or Arab looking students. Some of them were born in America, some came here like I did. Since September they've been harassed, called names, and been treated like they're not trustworthy just because of the colour of their skin... one of them was late getting back from a cross-country flight, and the first thing out of someones mouth was "I bet they're Taliban" (and no, they weren't joking)
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Go the xenophobes. That seems to be the way the world is turning at the moment. People are forgetting that we're all human.
------------------
[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Konrad:
[B]Rather than have police reports going to the local precincts and then dying in a pile, don't you think it would be better if they went to a central source where they could at least do something!
[B][/quote]
Konrad,
I see your point, but again, you missed mine. Having a centralized database for reports is not the scary part. What do they do with the information? Who does have access to it? More importantly, does the FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act) apply? Is there any oversight to this TIPS program? In fact, these questions have not been answered at this time.
Let us take your example as a case:
Your fertilizer delivery guy makes a “new” delivery and a foreign national with broken English takes delivery. Does that constitute a “strange group?” Should he call into TIPS and report it? Could it have been the driver’s bias just making him feel it was a “strange group? What if a 30-year-old white American male took delivery but the aforementioned foreign national guy was there as well, would that be a “strange group?”
Here is a response from JMS to a similar scenario:
“For instance...somebody subscribes to an Persian newspaper. We note this in somebody's home. The person also has a farm, and thus access to fertilizer. Trucker sees this, files the information, and continues to the next delivery. Now [they] have a file, and people are going to be looking for anything that might fit the profile, because [they] wouldn't HAVE a file if there wasn't something going on, right? “
How about this one:
You get a new neighbor, a single guy who has moved from across the country. You see each other when leaving for work in the mornings, but rarely any other time. After a few weeks you notice people, who you do not know, coming to visit him.
One day your mail is mixed with his and you notice he has a subscription to a foreign language magazine. You’ve never seen that type of writing.. When you go over to give him his mail, you notice a few maps and pictures of the state capitol building on the coffee table. One of his friends are over, he looks at you but doesn’t speak, and is watching a tape in a foreign language. You ask your neighbor what language the magazine is in but he avoids the question and quickly ushers you out.
Would this constitute a “strange” event worthy of a TIPS call? Would you even be qualified to make such a qualification?
I’m not saying that a TIPS type program is necessarily bad, but some questions need to be answered first.
Who gets access to the information?
What will they be doing with it?
Who will determine “suspicious behavior?”
What oversight does the program have?
Is the program subject to FOIA? If not you cannot even get the information gathered about you!
Without answers to these questions, the potential for abuse of this TIPS program is very real. Can you answer those questions? If you cannot you should take a long hard look before blindly accepting the program with open arms.
Sorry, didn't mean to go on a rant.
Rambie
[This message has been edited by Rambie (edited 07-26-2002).]
As for Bush, find a new target you guys, we have a three pronged goverment that balances power nicely. That and he's got a higher IQ than the majority.
[/quote]
Higher IQ than the majority of what? Gerbils?
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
Sometimes I must be serious about somethings. So here we go, I remember when you could trust your neighbors. The government worked for us or else. Truth be told here I spent 7 yrs working for the govern in Sp.Forces. In the later yrs learning how to deal with unrest in this country. Then and now I ask why? Is this not against the Consitution? But a lot of the blame comes down to ourselves when we do not hold these People accountable or even ask them the hard questions.
Comments
[b]
As for Bush, .......That and he's got a higher IQ than the majority. [/b][/quote]
Whatever I say to that I would be attacking one or anyone.
[quote]Originally posted by Konrad:
[b]
I could start attacking Queen Margrethe II or Prime Minister Rasmussen of Denmark just as easily, and be just as lame.
[/b][/quote]
Well, it's actually too bad the Queen doesn't really have a big say in Danish politics - she's rather intelligent as the matter of fact. The Danish Prime Minister - errr...difficult for me to comment on - he isn't exactly the most popular guy in Denmark. I'm not going to armwrestle over who's the most intelligent leader - it's for no use. But for a man who's president to say: [i]"I believe the human being and fish can coexist peacefully"[/i] and [i]"I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate
what I believe and what I believe - I believe what I believe is right."[/i] isn't exactly comforting. This isn't just two lines where it went wrong, if he at least laughs at the things he say you'd be able to take him more seriously.
My fingers are crossed that the civilized countries in the world won't get converted into a place where the citizens are also the police with similar powers and trust you can no one. Then you'd be looking at a society where you can get decapitated for farting in public.
------------------
Thomas Banner
[url="http://www.3dfrontier.com/~banner/"]Diverse 3D[/url]
[url="http://www.spacecadet.dk/"]Animator - Space Cadet[/url]
[This message has been edited by Banner (edited 07-18-2002).]
(for those that dont know, poutine is a Quebec creation: french fries with cheese curds and gravy)
[quote]
This misses the point by a mile.
What the Citizens Corps involves is the establishment of a branch of the
government which will solicit information from various sources -- none of whom
are authorized peace officers or in any way official individuals trained in
detection -- and take that information, gather it, disseminate it internally,
and track that information about people who may not have anything whatsoever to
do with anything in the smallest regard concerning terrorism.
Who gets this information? What will they be doing with it? How will it be
organized and disseminated? What stops someone from sending along unreliable
or false information in order to get someone in trouble? Who decides what is
"suspicious behavior?" And you the person being cataloged have NO way of
knowing what's in that file or that there even IS a file...further, this agency
will be free from FOIA discovery, so there's no way to determine what the
government has on you, if anything. The potential for abuse is mind-boggling.
The way the country has always worked is that if someone sees something
suspicious, they report it to the local police, who investigate it. That's how
our system has functioned for a very long time and successfully.
The acts of 9/11 should not lead us to throw out the very aspects of our
American system that brought their attack in the first place, the ideals that
we are, in principal, defending.
We've seen this before, in the McCarthy period. I'd hoped we had become smart
enough as a people not to fall for the okey-doke a second time. I was wrong.
jms
(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2002 by synthetic worlds, ltd.,
permission to reprint specifically denied to SFX Magazine
and don't send me story ideas)
[/quote]
[This message has been edited by ZocaloHobo (edited 07-22-2002).]
[b]Caught this post from JMS from Usenet....
This misses the point by a mile.
(snip)
[/b][/quote]
What do you mean, "misses the point" That *IS* the point and JMS has made the point eloquently. This TIPS program could turn our country into a police state.
------------------
Rambie
www.xmission.com/~rstulce/SE4-Index.htm
Moderator: SE4@yahoogroups.com
(I can hear the Canadians, Europeans, and a few US citizens freaking out and getting ready to flame already...) I agree that caution and vigilance is warranted, however what he did is out of line and in error.
I think that "misses the point" part is part of JMS's post. Use quote tags, people!
------------------
[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I forgot the tags.....my bad...
A fertilizer delivery truck driver is a worthy source for identifying odd behavior because he has a routine pattern and knows whom usually gets fertilizer and when. He also has a hazardous chemical DCL and has had a background check done.
Here is how I see it. If a fertilizer delivery truck driver were to report strange deliveries to a non-agricultural address to the police it would most likely die in red tape.
If the fertilizer truck driver, were to fill out a report that a strange group was buying large amounts of fertilizer and send it to the central agency the report would go into a central computer with some kind of "red flag" algorithm. (Guess what folks the Fed. has been doing that kind of thing for years for phone and e-mail messages.) That report combines with another report from a prima-chord distributor because the deliveries are to different addresses but the same cell phone number, that sets off the red flag! The FBI or who ever swing into action to investigate further. A potential foreign or domestic terrorist act has been averted.
I don't see a problem there, and it works better than just reporting to the police, who have to much to worry about already: murders, rape, robbery, etc. If similar reports are already being made why not put them to productive use!
[b]I made that jump bacause many of my arab friends have gotten into strange scenarios of terrorist accusations.[/b][/quote]
Has this happened in Sweden or in USA? If in Sweden, aren't you then just projecting Swedish problems on USA, hmmm?
------------------
Passive fields. January two thousand and twelve. A nation that stands alone. Cold voices, faces pale, Gathered unto their judgement day. Such words remain unspoken. Such pride remains unbroken. Just mothers to stand in vain and cry. Tears and medals in the rain. Shall I recall when justice did prevail? No reason to be found why reason did fail. The all clear resounding. The way was clear to rebuild this land. Shall I call on you to guide me well, To see our hopes and dreams fulfilled? On this day of our ascension.
VNV Nation - Honour
------------------
[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
With all the freaks kidnapping children and what not...
[B]Rather than have police reports going to the local precincts and then dying in a pile, don't you think it would be better if they went to a central source where they could at least do something!
[B][/quote]
Konrad,
I see your point, but again, you missed mine. Having a centralized database for reports is not the scary part. What do they do with the information? Who does have access to it? More importantly, does the FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act) apply? Is there any oversight to this TIPS program? In fact, these questions have not been answered at this time.
Let us take your example as a case:
Your fertilizer delivery guy makes a “new” delivery and a foreign national with broken English takes delivery. Does that constitute a “strange group?” Should he call into TIPS and report it? Could it have been the driver’s bias just making him feel it was a “strange group? What if a 30-year-old white American male took delivery but the aforementioned foreign national guy was there as well, would that be a “strange group?”
Here is a response from JMS to a similar scenario:
“For instance...somebody subscribes to an Persian newspaper. We note this in somebody's home. The person also has a farm, and thus access to fertilizer. Trucker sees this, files the information, and continues to the next delivery. Now [they] have a file, and people are going to be looking for anything that might fit the profile, because [they] wouldn't HAVE a file if there wasn't something going on, right? “
How about this one:
You get a new neighbor, a single guy who has moved from across the country. You see each other when leaving for work in the mornings, but rarely any other time. After a few weeks you notice people, who you do not know, coming to visit him.
One day your mail is mixed with his and you notice he has a subscription to a foreign language magazine. You’ve never seen that type of writing.. When you go over to give him his mail, you notice a few maps and pictures of the state capitol building on the coffee table. One of his friends are over, he looks at you but doesn’t speak, and is watching a tape in a foreign language. You ask your neighbor what language the magazine is in but he avoids the question and quickly ushers you out.
Would this constitute a “strange” event worthy of a TIPS call? Would you even be qualified to make such a qualification?
I’m not saying that a TIPS type program is necessarily bad, but some questions need to be answered first.
Who gets access to the information?
What will they be doing with it?
Who will determine “suspicious behavior?”
What oversight does the program have?
Is the program subject to FOIA? If not you cannot even get the information gathered about you!
Without answers to these questions, the potential for abuse of this TIPS program is very real. Can you answer those questions? If you cannot you should take a long hard look before blindly accepting the program with open arms.
Sorry, didn't mean to go on a rant.
Rambie
[This message has been edited by Rambie (edited 07-26-2002).]
As for Bush, find a new target you guys, we have a three pronged goverment that balances power nicely. That and he's got a higher IQ than the majority.
[/quote]
Higher IQ than the majority of what? Gerbils?
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
Argone Qu'noH