[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AnlaShok [/i]
[B]I am disgusted. [/B][/QUOTE]
The only person in Iraq that agrees with your sentiments is Saddam Hussein. (And I'm sure even he thinks it's about time the United States did something about him.)
interesting that you know so much and other point of views aren't acceptable....
reminds me of a regime and a population about 50 years ago in my country - they got indoctrinated the same way...
it's always simple to speak like that fed by massmedia and the gov...
freedom of consume and prosperity is not the same as freed minds!
by reading the last comments I'm really shocked how powerfull this multimedia world of propaganda may be.
wake up folks and see what's going on and question some things not only the obvious ones!
Hussein is a gangster - I totally agree, but he is an untalented one being clumsy and open with his crimes - a clever gangster takes action so other people don't get to know and even participate totally convinced that what's going on is only for good!
doing something wrong with the effect of doing something good in secondary doesn't mean that this is justified and honorable!
something I found referring to the case and B5 as you like referring to all the media around.
Tuesday, January 28, 2003
Almost forgot to mention
Posted by Lis at 12:10 PM | link
Whoops, when I finished my previous post, I forgot about one tidbit of even more disturbing news that I read last night:
In rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, J. Michael Straczynski wrote (excerpted):
[Karl Rove] tells Bruce [Boxleitner], "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
Then there's a pause, and he adds....
"And the President thinks so too."
Oh, weird.
Then again, if Bush & Rove like B5 so much, why are they repeating President Clark's strategies? I'd suggest we send them a copy of the episodes on the Nightwatch, but I think that's where they got their idea for the TIPS Program. This 1996 post by JMS seems particularly apt.
>>>>>
From: Jms at B5 [America Online postings by JMS] Search - Previous - Next
nightwatch
96-02-28 04:29:16
Here's something to consider in this.
It's easy -- safe and reassuring -- to dismiss Nightwatch and the whole
political climate on Earth at this time as referring to Nazi germany...SS,
Stormtroopers, informers...but if we know our history, it shows that this is
not so isolated as we might think. If we say it was just the Nazis, then
it's a non-repeatable phenomenon, we needn't worry about it again.
But, of course, it does happen again...it did, and it will, to varying
degrees. Go back to the Inquisition, and forward to Joe McCarthy and the
House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) which destroyed lives and
reputations based on association, past history, social contacts and party
affiliations (the items specified by Musante to the EA folks in Nightwatch).
Stalin and to a lesser extent Lenin would have been right at home in
Nightwatch. Several of the leaders speaking for parties in the ruins of what
was once Yugoslavia would also fit.
It's easy, and safe, for us to say, "Oh, we would never do that, only THEY
did that." But the "they" in this ARE the we on the other side...and "we"
have done it, are doing it now, and will continue to do it. Only when we
*know* the history of such things, when we recognize the rhetoric of control,
when we oppose blacklisting and scapegoating and dead-catting do we help to
assure that they *won't* arise again. Remember the quote: "Those who do not
remember history are condemned to repeat it."
There's a great deal of generalized historical and political metaphor in the
show, never one-to-one because that's too easy, but disguised in one form or
another, transumted. The Centauri Republic isn't a real republic by any
stretch of the imagination...any more than the Roman Republic from which it
draws some of its political structure, particularly the Centarum, the ruling
body. There's a great deal of Japanese political and social structure to the
Minbari, in their culture and art and some of their philosophy. You can find
parallels to the story in World War II, and the bible, among a few dozen
others.
Too little of TV these days is *about* anything...it's all context, no
subtext. This show is about a lot of things...but never in the mode of
telling you what to think. We'll ask *that* you think, that you consider the
world around you, and your place in it...but defining that is your business,
not ours.
Saddam Hussein is nothing more than very poor (as in clumsy, stupid and arrogant) terrorist with the resources of an entire country backing him. Keep in mind that during the initial Gulf War, this was the same man who was launching Scud missiles at NEUTRAL Israel, and is now doing the same thing at Kuwait.. at least with the latter I can understand because we're basing some of our operations there.
This is somethign that was left unfinished 12 years ago.. and was only a matter of time until it was REQUIRED to happen.. or would you have rather waited until he managed to get some long range ICBMs and lob those at the US or other countries tipped with biological/chemical, or worse, nuclear warheads? Keep in mind that this is the same man that, to put down uprising by people who were not content with his rule, would have entire villages gassed.. men, women, children. You want to talk about the death of innocents, look at the blood on his and his subbordinates hands.
And the Iraqi people are HAPPY that we're doing this! Was watching MSNBC (actually my folks were, I was waiting for something to heat up in the microwave) and in the blurbs at the bottom of the screen they stated that the Iraqi people were cheering coalition forces in the cities we've taken as we rip down posters and other Pro-Hussein propaganda.
Personally I think those people who are against this need to get their heads out of their collective asses and see what's REALLY going on. Hussein is a monster, not just to his own people, but to everyone in the world.
still people don't get the point - no one is siding for Hussein or his regime no one supports him but the reasons and the way this war has been started...
btw I'm really fond of people being happy to get rid of the opression but that's not the point I'm arguing about when thoise ppl just can forget about TV and its pictures which of course show happy ppl being liberated and anti regime movements but tell me about the things we don't see, the things really going on and not the surface of all that what everyone can see...
all the fuzz around the stage is very impressive but you never get a picture of what's behind the curtain.
I just wished someone would understand what I am trying to say and would refer to their own eyes and not the lenses of a broadcast....
that's not a witness that's a preset angle of some media agency and no one can tell what's happening in other corners or maybe 2 metres next to the spot or maybe somewhat got shattered what is not directly connected with iraq or the destiny of iraqian people.
see the stage as awhole and not only the part the spotlight is aiming at!!!!!
Actually, attacking Israel in the last Gulf war was a smart thing to do. Back then, our coalition depended on the participation of Arab states. Their cooperation required that Israel be uninvolved. By attacking Israel, Saddam was trying to get Israel involved, which would have splintered the coalition we had going back then by turning it into a Jews vs Muslims thing. This is why we practically begged Israel not to respond to the missile attacks.
As for the dancing in the streets... well, keep in mind that these people have done the same thing for Saddam's regime. The recent re-election of Saddam with its attendant celebrations comes to mind. My interpretation of this is that the Iraqi citizens in the liberated cities can see which way the wind is blowing, and want to be sure that they're seen as on the side of the victor. I don't think they realize yet that they're allowed to not like us. Over time, as they receive more balanced news showing multiple perspectives, I think they'll eventually understand just what it is they've gained here, and [i]then[/i] we'll see the genuine reactions.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]MT, thanks for that.
its getting lonely being the one of the few that actually knows whats really going on... [/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, so you must have close ties with Bush & Co, and talk to them on a regular basis to hear what's really going on?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Melkor [/i]
[B]Personally I think those people who are against this need to get their heads out of their collective asses and see what's REALLY going on. Hussein is a monster, not just to his own people, but to everyone in the world. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think you should do the same first!
You say not to trust the news.. fine.. who are we to trust? Hearsay? Saddam Hussein himself and his propoganda machine?
War sucks. I dont' like the fact that it came to this, but sometimes you have to do things that you dont' like doing in order to make things better. Do I think it's right? Personally I think the guy is a threat and have little doubts he'd NUKE the US if he was able and amounts to little more than a terrorist with the resources of a country behind him. Do I agree with the politics of it? I don't know, I don't pay attention to the politics, but I do know he has done everything in his power to defy the UN inspectors, he's stalled for time, he's attacked neutral countries not once, but twice, invaded one of said neutral countries, used weapons he had prior claimed he didn't have, commited mass murder of his own people, and is rumored to have had a hand in the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center (there were reports of an Iraqi intel officer meeting with a known Al Qeada (SP?) operative in paris prior to the attack.) and any number of other things that would have made some of the most brutal people in history proud. Granted, all that information does come from various news agencies.. but either they're all involved in one big conspiriacy to get the people against Saddam Hussein, or he actually did these things.
But my opinion on the right or wrongness of this doesn't matter. We have men and women over there fighting a war, who cares if it's "the good fight" or not. We should be praying for thier survival, a quick end and a safe return home and showing our support for them.. not bitching and moaning about the politics that none of us really have the security clearance to have a complete understanding of anyway.
well, I agree and in another thread although underlined that I do not judge the soldiers deployed in the assault on iraq and that I hope casualties are minimal on both sides at the end of the conflict. those soldiers there aren't responsible for their leaders decisions but people are responsible keeping an eye on what's going on with their politics at least they voted those representatives (well some are at least elected legally). I always question my gov and our politicians as I question myself - that's what I think is necessary.
the time I give up my right to utter criticism and stand up for my views that's the time politicians have the power and not the people like it is supposed to be.
regarding the news - I also watch the news - I watch CNN, I watch BBC, I watch french and german news and summing up all the impressions, the pictures drawn and the allusions made, the propaganda spread from each side I can make up my own mind.
but leaving every comment given unreflected is a dangerous thing to do as you just absorb given opinions.
and that is giving up the individual point of view
I don't feel this renunciation as an option and take initiative when it's needed - thousands of ppl have died to make democracy possible throughout the last centuries and now that we have it at last (thanks to the US of the 1940ies) I use it and never give up my right and my duty to keep it running.
and in my deepest innerself I feel this war is wrong although pretending and in secondary may be having a positive effect. I really doubt that liberating and disarming iraq is the premier goal in this operation! imo it is a usefull bonus justifying a war in the public.
Edit: I really feel that the "No Blood for Oil" argument that some protesters use is utter bullshit. Look at what the French are doing: their motto should be "We'll let torturous, lying, massacring, expiramenting bastards remain in power for oil."
I think the real truth about all this is not to be revieled within the next 50 years, but history later will tell what has been fact and what's not.
as for french or other oposing countries - they do not accept Hussein and it's a childish argument though just being against something in the same time doesn't mean siding with the opposite. there is alwys something betwenn black and white but maybe some ppl are living in a fairytale where there's only the option between good and evil in this case making war on iraq or being supporter of the regime.
very limited view though....
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Here I my views:
I am against the war in Iraq.
I am for removing Saddam.
I am generally not against war.
Why am I against it? Becuase of the complete incompetence and lack of trying diplomatically. Because I feel that we did not exhaust every option as the administration keeps saying. Becuase we do not have world support. Becuase our "allies" don't have popular support within their contries. Becuase the administration completely ignored legitimate complaints by UN members as to why we were rushing to war. Becuase it sets a very dangerous precedent. Becuase I feel it will harm our country more by inflaming world anti-US setiment.
12 years is more than enough time for diplomacy.. I do not mean any insult but this was inevitable. Now or later it would have happend. Either with Saddam himself, or one of his sons it wouldn't have mattered because it would have still happened.
As for finding out who is right and who is wrong? Here and now, does it matter? Seriously.. we're already engaged in this fight.. does the politics as to why, really count for anything anymore?
But don't you see that doing anything more diplomatically would be pointless? The inspections did not work. Iraq ignored dozens of UN mandates over the past [b]12 years[/b]. Do any of you honestly think that waiting longer for Saddamm to disarm would help? And after what point do you give up the diplomatic options? After another 6 weeks? Another 6 months? Another 6 years? Until he kicks the inspectors out? By allowing Sadamm to remain in power for that much longer would leave thousands more dead. History will look not at the fact that we "rushed" to war- but that it took us 12 years to do the right thing.
I don't know the exact last draft of the catalogue proposed to UN council but there it was said that Blix claimed to end the mission within half a year, unfortunately us administration prefered ignoring the last initiative; I guess because war already has been the plan a long time before....
at least the impression given by this action has given a clear statement of the us administration's acceptance and interest in international consent at least they managed to get some nations next to britain, spain, poland and denmark "supporting" the venture afterwards totally ignoring their peoples will.
the UNO now has lost its credibillity and international law is questioned as the legality of this war on the base of the last UN resolution divides the world as well. a mess of distrust, disappointment and fear is left...
and no one could tell if there are following problems evolving out of this war leading to more conflicts and ending up in a vicious circle similar but even more intense and of greater extend to the palestene problem in Israel.
[rant]
What really shits me is that they havn't found any chemical.biological wmd in locations they thought there was.Perhaps what the iraqi regime says has abit of truth:eek: And the media coverage of the war is to damm clean and the military arn't saying much where'as some other media namely in arab countries are portraying the side of war that is marked with dead people and destruction.I suppose if the western socities saw this then there would be more protest and anti war sentiment.[/rant]
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rhett [/i]
[B]But don't you see that doing anything more diplomatically would be pointless? The inspections did not work. Iraq ignored dozens of UN mandates over the past [b]12 years[/b]. Do any of you honestly think that waiting longer for Saddamm to disarm would help? And after what point do you give up the diplomatic options? After another 6 weeks? Another 6 months? Another 6 years? Until he kicks the inspectors out? By allowing Sadamm to remain in power for that much longer would leave thousands more dead. History will look not at the fact that we "rushed" to war- but that it took us 12 years to do the right thing. [/B][/QUOTE]
But just because you think working is pointless, do you go out and rob a bank?
This war is against international laws, laws that the USA helped create!
Just because they don't fit what Bush wants to do, they don't apply anmore?
Does any of you people in the US even KNOW what war means?
September 11th, EVERY FUCKING DAY!!!
There were other means of dealing with Saddam... the CIA did overthrow enough governments during the cold war, why not now? Wouldn't a "silent" change of power be even better for the people of Iraq, so that no civilian has to die, no one has to loose his home, his friend, his properties?
silent overthrow of Hussein wouldn't have been that "efficient" regarding the spectacular deviation of the people from their problems in their own countries and a increasing courses at the stock exchange as economics have always benefit from wars --> supply of troops, reconstruction and new business perspectives within iraq after installation of a western friendly administration and better control over the vast oil production being one of the biggest oil scources.
war has always been good for economics and politics if there was just one good reason to keep its people quiet (sometimes even resistance wasn't a reason to stop it).
and that's what people always forget when just observing the obvious reasoning but not the intentions behind it. (and no one can really tell what these are - only guess...and that's frightning enough for me).
you might say: " ah well yes this guy is consumed by conspiration theory, what a jerk" - well I can assure you I've never read any books of these and always tried to make up my own mind.
modern politics don't act like the old ones claiming territory and oppress people openly its the art of policy using the "freedom" people think they have and their wealth and their fears to justify open engegements and the rest is covered behind a curtain. Or can someone say what Bush is doing the whole day when not speaking with the public and visits schools etc? do you know what Blair is doing the whole day when being absent from parliament etc? do you know what my chancelor is doing the whole day when not talking about how reasonable his work is? do you know what all the secret services do whith their control, their possibilities, their knowledge? do you really know what's going on or do you just know what some people want you to know?
answer these questions honestly for yourself - I needn't have to get a "yes" or "no" - just question yourself if you really know what's going on (I know some smart people here know everything ;) ).
that's no matter of imagination that's a matter of knowing about human nature! and all the small things happening in your small environment is always transferable to a bigger extend and a more abstract body like politics!
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]see, thats just it.
By not supporting the war, you support Saddams staying in power, because like it or not, its the only way to get rid of him. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats a realy bad view of people in the world. So your saying that ever country that does not want to go to war is Supporting Saddam, Inclueding Canada.. I hate Facist dictators, I dont Support Saddam. Oh wait, Who Supported Saddam getting into Power in Iraq. Take a very big guess, The US DID....
What about those countrys that just dont want to have anything to do with this, Are they Saddam supporters Too.... This is one of the reson why people around the world hate the US so fucking much.
I don't support Hussein and I don't support wars as they're in most cases of religious or economical nature.
I don't believe in "war for humanity" as this is a paradox in itself.
todays dictators and even past ones such as Franco were tolerated as long as the economical and political situation has a benefit of it no matter if the dictator does any harm to his population or not. and as we speak of humanity - what is human in death sentence? just imagine the I gather an army or coalition to liberate Texas as I suspect inhuman treating within that territory through theirs authorities. (btw Mr.Bush has been gouvernor there right?)
well as you see it is indeed very simple to declare war for the sake of humanity and politics will always say that what they do is just for the good of the people and in this case it maybe human to liberate the iraqian ppl but I really doubt that this is the major goal of Mr. Bush. that's propaganda.
well, I promised earlier to quit the discussion....so maybe I should really do that as I really get frustrated about this planets future where everything gets justified as long as someone can claim its just for reasons of good will and humanity....
let's see which humanity matters the world has to face in half a year.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Captain,Simmonds [/i]
[B] Oh wait, Who Supported Saddam getting into Power in Iraq. Take a very big guess, The US DID....
[/B][/QUOTE]
uhhh.. the Baath party has been in power for quite a while before Saddam got onto the scene, it was internal politicking that got him where he is.
When the baath party overthrew the military government in the 60's Saddam Hussien became vice president and when the president died in the late seventies early eighties I think thats when Saddam became president.We all know that the US supplied Iraq with "technologies" when they were at war withj Iran.The US didn't like the Iranian government so sided with Iraq.Iraq made a tactical blunder when they invaded Kuwait, this raised the cost of fuel quite considerably and we all know that the US spend an unbelieveable ammount of money on their millitary so the gulf war was all over "oil".I just don't believe the american and british governments intentions after this war has finished.
Keyen, that is a great article. I posted about the chemical weapons plant in a new thread because I thought it was important enough to have its own topic.
Comments
[B]I am disgusted. [/B][/QUOTE]
The only person in Iraq that agrees with your sentiments is Saddam Hussein. (And I'm sure even he thinks it's about time the United States did something about him.)
its getting lonely being the one of the few that actually knows whats really going on...
reminds me of a regime and a population about 50 years ago in my country - they got indoctrinated the same way...
it's always simple to speak like that fed by massmedia and the gov...
freedom of consume and prosperity is not the same as freed minds!
by reading the last comments I'm really shocked how powerfull this multimedia world of propaganda may be.
wake up folks and see what's going on and question some things not only the obvious ones!
Hussein is a gangster - I totally agree, but he is an untalented one being clumsy and open with his crimes - a clever gangster takes action so other people don't get to know and even participate totally convinced that what's going on is only for good!
doing something wrong with the effect of doing something good in secondary doesn't mean that this is justified and honorable!
something I found referring to the case and B5 as you like referring to all the media around.
>>>>>
scource:
[url]www.osmond-riba.org/lis/journal/2003_01_26_j_archive.htm[/url]
Tuesday, January 28, 2003
Almost forgot to mention
Posted by Lis at 12:10 PM | link
Whoops, when I finished my previous post, I forgot about one tidbit of even more disturbing news that I read last night:
In rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated, J. Michael Straczynski wrote (excerpted):
[Karl Rove] tells Bruce [Boxleitner], "I just wanted to tell you that I'm a big science fiction fan, and that Babylon 5 is the best science fiction television series *ever*."
Then there's a pause, and he adds....
"And the President thinks so too."
Oh, weird.
Then again, if Bush & Rove like B5 so much, why are they repeating President Clark's strategies? I'd suggest we send them a copy of the episodes on the Nightwatch, but I think that's where they got their idea for the TIPS Program. This 1996 post by JMS seems particularly apt.
>>>>>
From: Jms at B5 [America Online postings by JMS] Search - Previous - Next
nightwatch
96-02-28 04:29:16
Here's something to consider in this.
It's easy -- safe and reassuring -- to dismiss Nightwatch and the whole
political climate on Earth at this time as referring to Nazi germany...SS,
Stormtroopers, informers...but if we know our history, it shows that this is
not so isolated as we might think. If we say it was just the Nazis, then
it's a non-repeatable phenomenon, we needn't worry about it again.
But, of course, it does happen again...it did, and it will, to varying
degrees. Go back to the Inquisition, and forward to Joe McCarthy and the
House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) which destroyed lives and
reputations based on association, past history, social contacts and party
affiliations (the items specified by Musante to the EA folks in Nightwatch).
Stalin and to a lesser extent Lenin would have been right at home in
Nightwatch. Several of the leaders speaking for parties in the ruins of what
was once Yugoslavia would also fit.
It's easy, and safe, for us to say, "Oh, we would never do that, only THEY
did that." But the "they" in this ARE the we on the other side...and "we"
have done it, are doing it now, and will continue to do it. Only when we
*know* the history of such things, when we recognize the rhetoric of control,
when we oppose blacklisting and scapegoating and dead-catting do we help to
assure that they *won't* arise again. Remember the quote: "Those who do not
remember history are condemned to repeat it."
There's a great deal of generalized historical and political metaphor in the
show, never one-to-one because that's too easy, but disguised in one form or
another, transumted. The Centauri Republic isn't a real republic by any
stretch of the imagination...any more than the Roman Republic from which it
draws some of its political structure, particularly the Centarum, the ruling
body. There's a great deal of Japanese political and social structure to the
Minbari, in their culture and art and some of their philosophy. You can find
parallels to the story in World War II, and the bible, among a few dozen
others.
Too little of TV these days is *about* anything...it's all context, no
subtext. This show is about a lot of things...but never in the mode of
telling you what to think. We'll ask *that* you think, that you consider the
world around you, and your place in it...but defining that is your business,
not ours.
jms
This is somethign that was left unfinished 12 years ago.. and was only a matter of time until it was REQUIRED to happen.. or would you have rather waited until he managed to get some long range ICBMs and lob those at the US or other countries tipped with biological/chemical, or worse, nuclear warheads? Keep in mind that this is the same man that, to put down uprising by people who were not content with his rule, would have entire villages gassed.. men, women, children. You want to talk about the death of innocents, look at the blood on his and his subbordinates hands.
And the Iraqi people are HAPPY that we're doing this! Was watching MSNBC (actually my folks were, I was waiting for something to heat up in the microwave) and in the blurbs at the bottom of the screen they stated that the Iraqi people were cheering coalition forces in the cities we've taken as we rip down posters and other Pro-Hussein propaganda.
Personally I think those people who are against this need to get their heads out of their collective asses and see what's REALLY going on. Hussein is a monster, not just to his own people, but to everyone in the world.
btw I'm really fond of people being happy to get rid of the opression but that's not the point I'm arguing about when thoise ppl just can forget about TV and its pictures which of course show happy ppl being liberated and anti regime movements but tell me about the things we don't see, the things really going on and not the surface of all that what everyone can see...
all the fuzz around the stage is very impressive but you never get a picture of what's behind the curtain.
I just wished someone would understand what I am trying to say and would refer to their own eyes and not the lenses of a broadcast....
that's not a witness that's a preset angle of some media agency and no one can tell what's happening in other corners or maybe 2 metres next to the spot or maybe somewhat got shattered what is not directly connected with iraq or the destiny of iraqian people.
see the stage as awhole and not only the part the spotlight is aiming at!!!!!
I hope you'll get that this time......
As for the dancing in the streets... well, keep in mind that these people have done the same thing for Saddam's regime. The recent re-election of Saddam with its attendant celebrations comes to mind. My interpretation of this is that the Iraqi citizens in the liberated cities can see which way the wind is blowing, and want to be sure that they're seen as on the side of the victor. I don't think they realize yet that they're allowed to not like us. Over time, as they receive more balanced news showing multiple perspectives, I think they'll eventually understand just what it is they've gained here, and [i]then[/i] we'll see the genuine reactions.
[B]MT, thanks for that.
its getting lonely being the one of the few that actually knows whats really going on... [/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, so you must have close ties with Bush & Co, and talk to them on a regular basis to hear what's really going on?
[B]Personally I think those people who are against this need to get their heads out of their collective asses and see what's REALLY going on. Hussein is a monster, not just to his own people, but to everyone in the world. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think you should do the same first!
War sucks. I dont' like the fact that it came to this, but sometimes you have to do things that you dont' like doing in order to make things better. Do I think it's right? Personally I think the guy is a threat and have little doubts he'd NUKE the US if he was able and amounts to little more than a terrorist with the resources of a country behind him. Do I agree with the politics of it? I don't know, I don't pay attention to the politics, but I do know he has done everything in his power to defy the UN inspectors, he's stalled for time, he's attacked neutral countries not once, but twice, invaded one of said neutral countries, used weapons he had prior claimed he didn't have, commited mass murder of his own people, and is rumored to have had a hand in the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center (there were reports of an Iraqi intel officer meeting with a known Al Qeada (SP?) operative in paris prior to the attack.) and any number of other things that would have made some of the most brutal people in history proud. Granted, all that information does come from various news agencies.. but either they're all involved in one big conspiriacy to get the people against Saddam Hussein, or he actually did these things.
But my opinion on the right or wrongness of this doesn't matter. We have men and women over there fighting a war, who cares if it's "the good fight" or not. We should be praying for thier survival, a quick end and a safe return home and showing our support for them.. not bitching and moaning about the politics that none of us really have the security clearance to have a complete understanding of anyway.
the time I give up my right to utter criticism and stand up for my views that's the time politicians have the power and not the people like it is supposed to be.
regarding the news - I also watch the news - I watch CNN, I watch BBC, I watch french and german news and summing up all the impressions, the pictures drawn and the allusions made, the propaganda spread from each side I can make up my own mind.
but leaving every comment given unreflected is a dangerous thing to do as you just absorb given opinions.
and that is giving up the individual point of view
I don't feel this renunciation as an option and take initiative when it's needed - thousands of ppl have died to make democracy possible throughout the last centuries and now that we have it at last (thanks to the US of the 1940ies) I use it and never give up my right and my duty to keep it running.
and in my deepest innerself I feel this war is wrong although pretending and in secondary may be having a positive effect. I really doubt that liberating and disarming iraq is the premier goal in this operation! imo it is a usefull bonus justifying a war in the public.
Edit: I really feel that the "No Blood for Oil" argument that some protesters use is utter bullshit. Look at what the French are doing: their motto should be "We'll let torturous, lying, massacring, expiramenting bastards remain in power for oil."
as for french or other oposing countries - they do not accept Hussein and it's a childish argument though just being against something in the same time doesn't mean siding with the opposite. there is alwys something betwenn black and white but maybe some ppl are living in a fairytale where there's only the option between good and evil in this case making war on iraq or being supporter of the regime.
very limited view though....
I am against the war in Iraq.
I am for removing Saddam.
I am generally not against war.
Why am I against it? Becuase of the complete incompetence and lack of trying diplomatically. Because I feel that we did not exhaust every option as the administration keeps saying. Becuase we do not have world support. Becuase our "allies" don't have popular support within their contries. Becuase the administration completely ignored legitimate complaints by UN members as to why we were rushing to war. Becuase it sets a very dangerous precedent. Becuase I feel it will harm our country more by inflaming world anti-US setiment.
As for finding out who is right and who is wrong? Here and now, does it matter? Seriously.. we're already engaged in this fight.. does the politics as to why, really count for anything anymore?
at least the impression given by this action has given a clear statement of the us administration's acceptance and interest in international consent at least they managed to get some nations next to britain, spain, poland and denmark "supporting" the venture afterwards totally ignoring their peoples will.
the UNO now has lost its credibillity and international law is questioned as the legality of this war on the base of the last UN resolution divides the world as well. a mess of distrust, disappointment and fear is left...
and no one could tell if there are following problems evolving out of this war leading to more conflicts and ending up in a vicious circle similar but even more intense and of greater extend to the palestene problem in Israel.
What really shits me is that they havn't found any chemical.biological wmd in locations they thought there was.Perhaps what the iraqi regime says has abit of truth:eek: And the media coverage of the war is to damm clean and the military arn't saying much where'as some other media namely in arab countries are portraying the side of war that is marked with dead people and destruction.I suppose if the western socities saw this then there would be more protest and anti war sentiment.[/rant]
[B]But don't you see that doing anything more diplomatically would be pointless? The inspections did not work. Iraq ignored dozens of UN mandates over the past [b]12 years[/b]. Do any of you honestly think that waiting longer for Saddamm to disarm would help? And after what point do you give up the diplomatic options? After another 6 weeks? Another 6 months? Another 6 years? Until he kicks the inspectors out? By allowing Sadamm to remain in power for that much longer would leave thousands more dead. History will look not at the fact that we "rushed" to war- but that it took us 12 years to do the right thing. [/B][/QUOTE]
But just because you think working is pointless, do you go out and rob a bank?
This war is against international laws, laws that the USA helped create!
Just because they don't fit what Bush wants to do, they don't apply anmore?
Does any of you people in the US even KNOW what war means?
September 11th, EVERY FUCKING DAY!!!
There were other means of dealing with Saddam... the CIA did overthrow enough governments during the cold war, why not now? Wouldn't a "silent" change of power be even better for the people of Iraq, so that no civilian has to die, no one has to loose his home, his friend, his properties?
war has always been good for economics and politics if there was just one good reason to keep its people quiet (sometimes even resistance wasn't a reason to stop it).
and that's what people always forget when just observing the obvious reasoning but not the intentions behind it. (and no one can really tell what these are - only guess...and that's frightning enough for me).
you might say: " ah well yes this guy is consumed by conspiration theory, what a jerk" - well I can assure you I've never read any books of these and always tried to make up my own mind.
modern politics don't act like the old ones claiming territory and oppress people openly its the art of policy using the "freedom" people think they have and their wealth and their fears to justify open engegements and the rest is covered behind a curtain. Or can someone say what Bush is doing the whole day when not speaking with the public and visits schools etc? do you know what Blair is doing the whole day when being absent from parliament etc? do you know what my chancelor is doing the whole day when not talking about how reasonable his work is? do you know what all the secret services do whith their control, their possibilities, their knowledge? do you really know what's going on or do you just know what some people want you to know?
answer these questions honestly for yourself - I needn't have to get a "yes" or "no" - just question yourself if you really know what's going on (I know some smart people here know everything ;) ).
that's no matter of imagination that's a matter of knowing about human nature! and all the small things happening in your small environment is always transferable to a bigger extend and a more abstract body like politics!
You want Saddam in power?
Go live in Iraq.
By not supporting the war, you support Saddams staying in power, because like it or not, its the only way to get rid of him.
[B]see, thats just it.
By not supporting the war, you support Saddams staying in power, because like it or not, its the only way to get rid of him. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats a realy bad view of people in the world. So your saying that ever country that does not want to go to war is Supporting Saddam, Inclueding Canada.. I hate Facist dictators, I dont Support Saddam. Oh wait, Who Supported Saddam getting into Power in Iraq. Take a very big guess, The US DID....
What about those countrys that just dont want to have anything to do with this, Are they Saddam supporters Too.... This is one of the reson why people around the world hate the US so fucking much.
I don't believe in "war for humanity" as this is a paradox in itself.
todays dictators and even past ones such as Franco were tolerated as long as the economical and political situation has a benefit of it no matter if the dictator does any harm to his population or not. and as we speak of humanity - what is human in death sentence? just imagine the I gather an army or coalition to liberate Texas as I suspect inhuman treating within that territory through theirs authorities. (btw Mr.Bush has been gouvernor there right?)
well as you see it is indeed very simple to declare war for the sake of humanity and politics will always say that what they do is just for the good of the people and in this case it maybe human to liberate the iraqian ppl but I really doubt that this is the major goal of Mr. Bush. that's propaganda.
well, I promised earlier to quit the discussion....so maybe I should really do that as I really get frustrated about this planets future where everything gets justified as long as someone can claim its just for reasons of good will and humanity....
let's see which humanity matters the world has to face in half a year.
Rushing into war like this only shows that the US government never wanted any other solution anyway. And now the rest of the world pays the price.
[B] Oh wait, Who Supported Saddam getting into Power in Iraq. Take a very big guess, The US DID....
[/B][/QUOTE]
uhhh.. the Baath party has been in power for quite a while before Saddam got onto the scene, it was internal politicking that got him where he is.
Intersting.
Also interesting - they found a 100 acre chemical weapons facility hidden in the desert, it was built with sandcast walls to hide it.