rAgE! (warning: contains bitching and whining)

Dax

So, I've applied for 15 + jobs at home while turning down several jobs in New York.
After my trip home in November I realized that home really is the place to be and all for family/friends/boyfriend etc... After financial considerations, I made the direct decision to come home around Christmas and now I have to live with it for a while.

BUT it's soo bloody frustrating! I only get responses to 20% of the applications I send in and even after 2 interviews for one position I got shot down.

There is only one job I am intersted in now but it doesn't close for a couple weeks which means there is no way I am finding a job by June 1st. I started applying early because I need to start making money soon and I really wanted to get myself settled ASAP.

I am so frustrated because in high school they push and push higher education on you when in reality you really have to start at entry level just like everyone else, you might get promoted faster in the long run but if your peers have a 4-5 year lead on you as well as no debt (which is putting a huge amount of pressure on me right now)- they seem to be ahead. Gah!

Not only do I have a BA in English, but I have a diploma in multimedia/graphic design AND almost a Masters in Publishing (minus the thesis)- so how come I can't get a fucking job!

< / bitching > ... for now...

SpiritOne

Well, I'm gonna guess your like me when your bitching. You don't really want the answers because you already know them, you just want to vent.

I will say this though, don't think the folks that didn't go to college don't have debt. They don't have student loans, but its reasonable to assure that they bought something they couldn't afford.

I missed out on College right after High School, instead I went the Marine Corps route. It was hard as hell, making no money, trying to start a family. It did however give me two big things, training and experience. Most employers will hire experience over a degree any day of the week.

Flop to the wife, and she is in College now as a 28 year old mom. She wants to be a teacher. Of course for that, a degree is mandatory.

What kind of jobs are you looking at?
and, Where is home?

Entil'Zha

You can come work for me in a Coffee shop. I think all of my employees have a Degree, lol,

finding a job is a pain in the butt, i always make sure to at least respond to all applicants, even if i'm not going to hire them, i still will give them a reply.

croxis

Most/many places/people get hired from networking and knowing people. Make some friends in the places you want to work and in the field you want to work in. This is bloody difficult for shy people like me.

Entil'Zha

being shy does suck, it took me quite a lot to come in here and ask for a job 4 years ago, but boy am i glad i did, i went in to apply for a job as a Barista, now i'm the General Manager, and am going to be taking over the business soon.

Biggles

[QUOTE=Dax;160227]I am so frustrated because in high school they push and push higher education on you when in reality you really have to start at entry level just like everyone else, you might get promoted faster in the long run but if your peers have a 4-5 year lead on you as well as no debt (which is putting a huge amount of pressure on me right now)- they seem to be ahead. Gah![/QUOTE]

I know you're just venting, but I'm going to pick on this particular point anyway.

You're making a massive generalisation of what higher education is. First of all, remember that having a degree does not directly equate to getting a job, nor being any more qualified for a job. It depends very much on what degree you have. I have a BE, without which I almost certainly would not have got any kind of engineering job. By having earned a BE, I have a fancy piece of paper made by a reputable institution that guarantees I have gone through the necessary training and education, and that in doing so I have probably developed the necessary skills for the job (the official transcript, which shows how well I did in each paper, is also important). For my [i]next[/i] job, my previous job will become a much more important qualification than my degree, but for that all-important first job, the degree is vital. Some people are able to get similar jobs without the degree by proving their experience and knowledge, but this is a much harder route and employers will take someone with a degree over someone without a degree any day. But this is only one particular area, and a very technical, focused area where certain skills and training are necessary. So let's have a look at another example: The ever-deplored BA.

A BE degree is considered "applied science." That means it's very practical, and has a direct application in the real world with measurable results (e.g. the bridge stayed up, or the bridge fell down). A BA is much closer to what degrees originally meant: an achievement in academia. You carry out a course of study in a particular subject area, becoming somewhat knowledgeable about that area, with the potential to carry on to higher degrees and become an expert in that area. The link to real-world ability is much weaker, and generally more related to the skills you develop (such as analytical ability) by doing the degree than the knowledge gained. However, this doesn't guarantee you a job, because such skills are also developed during high school, and some people just plain don't have them, even if they managed to pass a BA. So having a BA is a far less direct qualification than the practical degrees. A lot of people do a BA out of interest in a particular area of the Arts rather than with the aim of getting a job out of it (many of these people get lost in University and can't find their way out, ending up as academics :p). The issue here is the now-common perception in Western society that having a degree means you're automatically more qualified for a job, which actually only applies to certain degrees. There are plenty of other ways to get just as qualified (take SpiritOne as an example). (The other downside of this perception is that employers often place too much weight on if someone has a degree when they shouldn't.) In the right jobs, I would expect your diploma in design to have more weight than your BA even though it's not a degree, because it's a practical award and says you have certain skills necessary for the job. The BA is, at best, an indirect qualification for any job in the real world.

As for your Masters in Publishing: I would expect that to count for something, when you finish it. "Almost" having a degree doesn't mean anything (except to the more cynical person, if you aren't working towards it at the present time, that you can't finish what you started).

Falcon1

I've found lately that some actually laugh at people with degrees. There's a perception now that degrees are handed out on the backs of cereal boxes. While this is true for some it doesn't apply to all. My boss always looks for people with degrees when they apply for jobs, something some of the crew here can't understand (because they don't have degrees). They think he's an idiot and degrees are a huge waste of time and money. What they don't realise is that getting a degree is more than just doing that, its a massive life changing experience. I loved it. So when people just dismiss degrees as a waste of time, I get quite annoyed as they don't know what they are talking about.

I have a BA Degree in Archaeology and an MSc in Archaeological Computing. The first had me trained for that field really and the MSc, while still focused on archaeology, did give me a broader experience that ultimately got me my current job. But it was still a narrowly focused qualification.

Now when I graduated I suddenly realised my skill sets were limited. I had made the decision that a life as an academic archaeologist wasn't for me. In a way one could saw the time spent was a waste. So I went through the same process Dax, applied for jobs left right and centre. Any really. I got the usual "thanks we've put you on file" and an ever longer list of "no replies". Needing money fast I applied for a job in the university library, stacking shelves. I go it. It was an easy no brainer, 18hrs a week so I had plenty of free time. A perfect come down from the stress of my MSc. While there I kept looking for something better but kept drawing blanks. I got very pissed off as time passed (plus under pressure from the folks to get a real job) and things looked bleak. A couple of months into the job I spotted an advert for my current one. I applied and for some reason they gave me the job :) That was over 6 years ago.

So my moral of the story is something good will always come round the corner. Its hard trying to be patient but things have a tendancy to work out. So just hang in there, there is a good job out there with your name on it :) Hee you'll probably end up working for a tea company :p

Biggles

[QUOTE=Falcon1;160247]I've found lately that some actually laugh at people with degrees. There's a perception now that degrees are handed out on the backs of cereal boxes. While this is true for some it doesn't apply to all. My boss always looks for people with degrees when they apply for jobs, something some of the crew here can't understand (because they don't have degrees). They think he's an idiot and degrees are a huge waste of time and money. What they don't realise is that getting a degree is more than just doing that, its a massive life changing experience. I loved it.[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree. No degree is a waste of time in any way other than "I could have been out working for those 3 years!" That may be the case, but would you be as happy? A degree is an investment in time and learning to make yourself better in some way. It is not and should not be seen as simply a qualification for a job. That's what certificates are for. If you have a degree, it shows you have certain qualities that employers may look for, such as commitment to a long-term goal, but it doesn't guarantee that you're suited for a particular job (except possibly in some narrow field).

ShadowDancer

I think that perception of "laughing at people with degree's" is becoming more and more prevalent in the UK (i dunno about elsewhere). I know the widespread belief amongst my peers at university is that if they had known this before hand they would never have bothered with their degrees. Several of my friends have just finished their degrees have said to me that essentially it isn't worth the paper its printed on, and they have said to me the only reason to continue with mine is because its a vocational degree (I'm doing a BSc in Diagnostic Radiography and am just finishing 1st year, for those who don't know). Even so, I think I could have learnt more from a text book on the subject in a month than I have learnt in 1st year which begs they question: why bother? (Our year head wrote an editorial in the radiography in-house journal saying pretty much the same thing)

:confused:

JackN

I have an unfinished A.S. in Electronics Technology. 4 units out of the 37 applied are for Physical Ed. The rest were the technical credits for the degree. I never got around to finishing it, because I was too busy getting experience...

:D

Several of the career directions I have gone in my life were self taught and were made available to me because I was able to show experienced proof of ability.

I have have been turned down on jobs that I know I could do because I have no university degree to speak of, and shake my head in amusement when they constantly go through people for that job because the degree holders have no practical experience.

While I do NOT laugh at anyone with a degree and have great respect for the time and struggle it has taken forthem to get it, I vote for the experience side of things more often than not.

What it really comes down to though most often it's who you know, and not what you know.

I've worked for some people that it just really amazes me that they are in charge? Degree or not...

:p

Dax

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Spirit One: home = Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada and I am looking for something in my field, publishing, but the market is tough. And also: yeah but a $5000 tv is only a drop in the bucket toward my $100,000 in student loan debt.

Biggles: I am very aware of the way things are but I am basically calling 'bullshittery' on all of those guidance counselors who said Uni is the only way to go. If I have kids, I will only push higher education past high school but I am not going to care if its community college or uni or whatever- just something, I feel that I wasn't fairly informed about the 'real' world out there, the market is changing such that more and more jobs require degrees and I don't regret getting mine but I might have done it differently if I knew that I would be faced with so much debt afterwards and still having to start at entry level.
I feel a bit silly for being so naive to think that degree = perfect job right away. I thought that uni was its own 'right of passage' but in the real work it's not, it's really just a way of keeping the job market competitive.

Falcon1: I found that at my internship they reacted not as I expected. Some people were almost intimidated about a masters, they thought that I might take their job, others didn't see why it was necessary etc... And I agree with you, it is more which is why (going back to Biggles point) I think it should be worth more- at least +1 exp! :P

JackN: I agree, it really is who you know and it seems to me that on the side of a tech school or just experience, you end up getting more useful contacts rather than just your professors at uni. For my masters however, I have made loads of useful contacts because all my profs are working in the industry now- hence the turning down job offers here. So I've made contacts just in the wrong place :P but they'll come in useful later on.

The moral of the story is correct, be patient...

Because of course the day after I start bitching, I get a job.
The main reason for bitching is that I felt pretty useless. I was stuck in a lurch between NY and Halifax, NY is definitely on the speed of email where as Halifax runs at a bit slower pace and uses email but doesn't always get back to you right away. I felt like since home was still a few weeks away I couldn't do anything, like physically go to a company and ask for a job but I couldn't not look either. Thankfully that period is over too.

When I was home in March, I ran into my previous employer who asked what I was doing for this summer and we discussed the possibility of me working for them while searching other jobs but it depended on them getting funding because they are a non-profit org.
Today I found out they did get their funding so I have a job that's not really in my field but the pay is decent and I only have to give them 2 weeks notice if I get hired as a lab instructor in publishing position at Kings University (as referenced above)- or somewhere else. I start Wednesday. :D

< / bitching for now :P>

Edit: LOL I just noticed my new title- awesome!

croxis

One of my big big issues is the push (here in the states) to University. I feel that all students should go into post secondary education, but there is more out there than Universities. There are many technical fields which require additional training. One of my classmate's boyfriend is currently going to a technical school for something automobile related. Once he gets out he has a very marketable certification and a good chance of being brought on quickly.

Even in the university there seems to be little in the way on helping students network. PSU (my uni) is a little ahead of the curve in this as the general education program has a focus on service based learning. Other than that the university seems to push people to academic fields; exceptions being the school of business.

Hell, I'm worried that I'm not going to be a good teacher. Due to the nature of my degree and background I really don't have a viable backup plan. My degree in general science is almost useless as it is too general and provided me little lab experience.

Derek and I were up for way to long talking about this last night, I guess Dax and I need to ponder some more.

Dax

I agree Croxis, something has to be done. I am actually doing a small part myself for the university here, I was so pissed about not even being able to find a job for 6 months that I wrote a big letter to the University's VP of HR and now I am writing a student handbook about on campus employment.

It would be interesting to use "the Long Tail" to our advantage here, I bet we could get a whole bunch of people we know and network them together from around the world on a site... hmm.. you should add me to MSN, I'll PM you my info

Sanfam

I guess I classify as the "lost in education" type. I entered college with the idea that it was 100% necessary to get anywhere in the world, and I've come out learning that most of the skills I needed for the job market, or skills I could possibly use to benefit my employer or the products I'd produce are those which I could just as easily have learned on my own time. Hell, many of them I did without any motivation whatsoever from the academic realm. This isn't to say I'm better or worse at a job than others, but I just feel as if my education has been underwhelming to the point of losing nearly all interest in actually [B]completing[/B] this damned degree.

Biggles

[QUOTE=croxis;160296]One of my big big issues is the push (here in the states) to University.[/quote]

NZ has the same problem. For the past 20 years there's been an increasing push for [i]everyone[/i] to go to university, in the misguided belief that if everyone has a university degree, the economy will somehow magically transform into a knowledge-producing machine that rakes in the money from other countries. The universities, being funded based on student numbers, have been more than happy to push this idea along.

Unfortunately, this has resulted in two things. Firstly, it has diluted the overall quality of students coming out (garbage in, garbage out), and diluted the quality of many degrees as a result. Secondly, we now have a massive shortage of trained builders, electricians and plumbers (this point wasn't helped by the government also getting rid of apprenticeships as a qualification, a stupidity that was recently recitified).

[QUOTE=Dax;160301]It would be interesting to use "the Long Tail" to our advantage here, I bet we could get a whole bunch of people we know and network them together from around the world on a site... hmm.. you should add me to MSN, I'll PM you my info[/QUOTE]

So... [url=http://www.linkedin.com/]LinkedIn[/url]?

The Cabl3 Guy

I see someone has already logged in using this computer as a chemical specialist wtf? lol

Who the fuck is greg derner? [email]johnlennonplasticoband@yahoo.com[/email]?

croxis

There are quite a few networking sites. Myspace and facebook has them built right in.

Biggles

Well, the idea of LinkedIn is that it's solely for professionals to network. This means it isn't flooded with teenagers. :)

JackN

Being an instructor for a vocational college was an eye opening experience. Focus was on the Financial Aid game. I did my best to stay apart from the money thing and try to give my students (the ones who were actually there to learn anyway) the best I could give. Being an instructor can burn you out if you are the kind of person who actually cares.

Kind of like my mindless Injection Molding job right now...

:)

croxis

Mindless isn't bad in moderation imho.