ATTN Devs: Rant, reflections, questions...

Brewt

This originated as a quick reply to Rick, yet quickly(?) transformed into a really long message...

[quote]Originally posted by Rick:
[b]As far as sierra goes, all the people responsible for cancelling the game have either left or been fired.

Karma rules.[/b][/quote]As a 99% lurker, my take on the situation is this:

Sierra made a bone-headed business decision to kill the game. Such a decision was made worse considering the fact that the developers were forced to relocate shortly prior to said killing. (Though I'm a software consultant who floats around the country, I'm imagining that such a relocation would be particularly painful if one would own a house and/or if, God forbid, have a family of his own...) Honestly, however, I didn't feel the urge to boycott at that point. Actually, I had scooped-up many renditions of "You Don't Know Jack" shortly afterward...

Havas, on the other hand, went out of their way to demonstrate what scum they are by retracting their offer once another publisher was found by you many moons ago. This, to me, is far beyond a "bone-headed business decision” This is, to me, unforgivable – actually, it sounds very spiteful.

They have now been successful in burying the body of ItF that Sierra had originally riddled with bullets years ago. Since the Havas decision, I've not purchased a single Sierra (yech), Valve (never got to play Half Life more than the demo), Simon & Schuster (thank God Addison Wesley publishes my tech books), or Blizzard (this one hurt) title. As far as I know, Havas went out of their way to hurt you as well as us.

What angers me more than the idea of the code for ItF being buried is the last remaining footage filmed within the original sets of Babylon 5 for ItF being vaulted behind a regiment of lawyers – which is a concern originally voiced by you shortly after the original Sierra cancellation. Code can always be re-written. The B5 sets are long gone.

[politics] I’ve decided to stick around as a lurker for all of this time despite the unsavory attitude of the loudest members here within the forums (think of incident in which those from the US wished to mourn the recent death of US military members upon a certain Navy ship, or those who believe that a murderer – despite his age – should be held accountable for such a crime). In addition, Randy, I appreciate your outburst of sanity within certain other threads...[/politics]

So, after this rant, a few questions remain: 1) What are the chances of retrieving the film footage on the old sets? 2) How does the reports of WB licensing cessation that some of us have heard about affect this? 3) Should one purchase a copy of Lightwave or 3DStudio? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]

All politics aside, I am happy that a community effort such as FirstOnes can help propel a software effort for so long. As an accomplished programmer – but a know-nothing gamer-creator – I hope to read more from Randy and the gang as further inspiration for my own game development company (which will happen within the next four years – dammit!!).

IceFireTBP

WB is probably waiting for the Legend of the Rangers to turn into a series (which sounds possible and even likely *crosses fingers*). Thats when they will likely start doing the licenses again.

The community here is nothing short of incredible. All of you should pat yourselves on the back for fighting for as long as you have. The objective to bring ITF back from the ashes never saw the light of day....but it did build the First Ones community...and it sounds like alot of you benefitted from that relationship.

So not all is lost. Some good can come from the worst of situations.

Sanfam

WOO! We should be proud of ourselves [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]

JackN

Before you start your game company Brewt, make sure you have a win-win game idea to charter it on...

[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]

God... We had that, but we didn't have a company to back our effort... Things could have been so different.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda I guess...

Biggles

Brewt: I have to agree with most of what you say. Not much to add though, you've covered it pretty well, especially the thing about them deciding not to sell the game. We sure showed them the power of fans...
Oh yeah?, re: the game company: OH OH! HIRE ME! HIRE ME! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

JohnD

[quote]Originally posted by Brewt:
[b]Sierra made a bone-headed business decision to kill the game.[/b][/quote]

Seeing as how none of us know all the facts behind the decision, I don't think anyone here can legitimately make that claim. Well, except for the dev team and S14, once they've let the experience fade into the background and break down any negative feelings about the whole experience.

If the expenditures they'd made and projected to make didn't sufficiently exceed their projected income from the game, IMO, it would have been a good business choice.

Drazi Guy

I do know most of the facts, however.... Sierra's decision to cancel *might* have been a logical one for them, however, their subsequent behaviour more than far outweighs whatever intelligence might have been with their decision.

Whoa... not sure if that paragraph makes sense...

Warleader D'Ren

simple, havas is probably a trekkie, and an idiot who refused to give in just for the spite, let him rot

Randy

The B5 footage for the sim is murky, legally speaking, as far as I can tell. Since Sierra paid for the production of it - it's theirs. But since WB owns the license and Sierra lost their interactive right to that license, WB owns it. Hmmmmm. It all comes down to the agreement that was signed, and I haven’t read it. If it wasn’t filled with titanium boiler plate, there could be wiggle room for interpretation. I guess a pack of lawyers would have to scrap over it. But who has the incentive to let the legal hounds loose? No one, I fear. The footage may remain in limbo unless someone decides they want it bad enough to fight over it – someone with clout and/or lots of money.

Thanks for the kind words, btw Brewt.

I'm a Lightwave fan. Still the best bang for the buck, IMHO.

[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 06-16-2001).]

samuelk

Babylon 5, in whatever medium you choose to analyze, has always been the underdog, the beaten fighter that refuses to stay down...

The series was a struggle...the game was a struggle...the book deals were a struggle. Each struggle was different, but there's always a common thread to each. I believe that eventually, there WILL be at least one retail B5 game. Hopefully whoever decides to pick up the flag and lead the charge manages to follow in ItF's footsteps, and do it the intelligent way.

Some game licenses have taken a long time to reach a high standard (Star Wars comes to mind)... Fortunately for a change, the type of Control that WB has of the license, combined with WB's intelligent decision to allow JMS' constant input could be the best thing about the license. Maybe keeping B5 on a "short leash", will ensure that only high-quality games are made (or, Valen-forbid, [i]almost[/i] made).

[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 06-16-2001).]

Sanfam

Well Said, Sam [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]

I myself know very little about legal matters. It is a strong lacking in this modern lawyer-eat-dog world.

I just wish someone would create a B5 Game. I will not give up in my support of these actions, no matter how little I may be able to contribute. At least we do not have the situations as stated (an over-production of poor quality titles)

Rick

Brewt: Thanks for the kind words.

Re: Sierra/Havas-- you have no idea. I only hope for the sake of the souls left there that this new CEO they brought in has half a clue about games...and money.

That rejection letter last September litterally drove me to tears when I first received it. It totally blew me away. They literally turned down, well, *alot* of money. In the exact sum they originally asked for it the year prior.

Regarding your software delemma--I have to answer that carefully, because I'm sorely biased to LightWave. What I must say, though, is that the games industry is supporting Maya and 3Dstudio far more than LightWave. When we were working on ITF, we had the luxury of having a very talented set of tools programmers that made everything we needed to work with LightWave as a game-building tool. Unfortunately, outside of what we made in our group (and Nihilistic Software made for Masquerade: Redemption), there are very few (commercially available)game content development tools that use LightWave on the market right now.

I'm hoping that might change, as Newtek added so darn many sweet features in LightWave6.5, like texture baking, the new scripting system, and the region tagging tools, but that will take time.

It's odd, really, as it's far less work to convert the LightWave format into a game-readable object. This is due to the fact that LW objects are polygon-driven geometries, rather than the solids the other modellers use.

I agree with Randy: LightWave is just plain the best bang for the buck (and still makes renderings than Max by orders of magnitude), BUT take it under advisement that most of the rest of the industry is using Maya and 3DSmax.

Just my $0.02.

-Rick

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[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]

C_Mon

I agree Brewt!
and I think the 3d program should bee.........Realsoft 3D!!!!!!!!! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]

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Born from silence, silence full of it
A perfekt concert my best friend
So much to live for, so much to die for
If only my heart had a home
-Nightwish:Dead boy's Poem-

Biggles

I too am a Lightwave fan, although I have never used 3DSMax. But speaking from a purely CGI point of view, I would love to get my hands on a copy of RenderMan. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

Brewt

Wow! I honestly didn't expect the responses that I would receive prior to my original post!

As far as the "boneheaded Sierra" call goes, I simply wanted to differentiate it from the Havas decision -- while one is for business, the other is in spite (as a lurking outsider is concerned, of course).

My yet-to-be-announced game company? There are those with whom I've worked during my short existence as a "consultant" (three years) that feel the same way as I -- there needs to be a kick-ass game... And, in a few years of "save up!" mode, we can get our shit together and produce a nice game while on an extended sabbatical. We can do it. I know we shall do it. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] I know such resource caching will take some time, however.

Thank you for your comments concerning 3DSMax vs Lightwave. I've used both, yet I've historically been more successful with the latter in terms of tech support -- not to mention the fact that Lightwave was my very first modeling/animation software ever used for public consumption (Well, for college -- but they "ooooooohed" me for a video concerning "biomass" fer cryin' out loud!) If AutoDesk/Kinetix/whoever doesn't make their file format too painful to export, I'd just assume use the best MODELLER available, which sounds like "Lightwave" at this point.

Thanks again, Rick, Randy & JackN. BTW, who actually posted the Heston speech? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Brewt (edited 06-18-2001).]

Biggles

I actually consider trueSpace to have the best modeller, but then again I've only used Blender, trueSpace and LightWave.

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Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.

"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

[This message has been edited by Biggles (edited 06-18-2001).]