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The sad tale of Londo and Lyta

Rogue Fury 4Rogue Fury 4 Earthforce Officer
Thoughout the Babylon 5 series, there are few others than Londo and Lyta that just don't have the best luck. Sure they saved the galaxy and altered the course of many worlds but...

Londo, by the time he was emporer had lost everything he ever wished for, including free will, despite his loyal intensions and his many accomplishments he and his world are under a yolk.

Lyta, is used without thanks many many times, abused my the Vorlons and neglected by the B5 higher ups, she lived a life of sadness and punishment... perhaps someting good came out of her 'retreat' with G'Kar?

[SIZE=1]Sorry if the books tell us more about these events/people, I have not had the opportunity to read them. [/SIZE]But if they say something abouth this topic, post it ;)
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Comments

  • VladVlad Earthforce Officer
    Final Reckoning (the third book of the Psi Corps trilogy) hints around at what Lyta was up to after the series ended, although there's no specific details given.

    Unfortunately, I haven't gotten around to reading the Centauri trilogy just yet.
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    The Cantauri trilogy describes what happens on Centauri Prime from the between [i]Objects at Rest[/i] and [i]Sleeping in Light[/i]. It's well worth the read.
  • RhettRhett (Not even a monkey)
    'The centauri trilogy and the technomage trilogy are the best books, IMHO. But you are correct, I always felt bad for Londo, because in the end (after he had matured) he got the sharp end of the stick. So did Lyta, but Londo ended up losing everything...
  • RubberEagleRubberEagle What's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
    I've always felt sorry for Zack (because he didn't get Lyta ;) )
  • bobobobo (A monkey)
    *Spoiler (not sure if their required or not*








    No definitive answer about Lennier that I can quote, but it was mentioned in the (first) final episode that he redeemed himself in saving David Sheridan from the keeper Londo hid in the urn.
  • David of MacDavid of Mac Elite Ranger Ca
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by bobo [/i]
    [B]No definitive answer about Lennier that I can quote, but it was mentioned in the (first) final episode that he redeemed himself in saving David Sheridan from the keeper Londo hid in the urn. [/B][/QUOTE]

    That never happened.

    The last Centauri Prime novel tells exactly what happened with David Sheridan II and his keeper, and Lennier was no where to be seen.

    Now, there are two episodes that tell us a little about what happened to Lennier after the show ended.

    In [i]Day of the Dead[/i], Morden told Lennier that he would betray the Rangers (which he did) and know about the afterlife "soon enough".

    In [i]Sleeping in Light[/i], Delenn toasts Lennier as one of the dearly departed. Given how she reacted when he was lost in that Minbari fighter with the poorly designed oxygen reclamation system ("He's not dead until I see a body"), I'm guessing that he died in such a way that she knew about it, and wasn't knifed playing poker in a seedy bar on Praxis IX.
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    The "betray the rangers" thing is about how he doesn't help Sheriden, I think.
  • Rogue Fury 4Rogue Fury 4 Earthforce Officer
    I agree that Lenier is also prime candidate for the sadest life. Poor Lennie...
    Sometimes our memmories are alittle rusty... that why we have David and Biggles :)
    I will oneday get the books, they sound like a great read.
    later :)
  • bobobobo (A monkey)
    Hmm, guess its time to brush of the trilogies again, Could have sworn I heard/read that somewhere.
  • NelnoNelno Trainee
    As far as Londo goes, I agree that he had some horrible luck, but not as you might think. Londo was a cruel and evil man and deserved everything that happened to him. The extent of his bad luck was that he actually had the oppurtunity to put his character to the test time and again, and never once made the right choice. How many millions did he knowingly cause the death of for no reason other than his own greed? How many billions did he cause needless suffuring to for the same reason?

    Even at the end of the series, you could look into his eyes and KNOW that, if given a chance, he would make the same choices all over again. Yea, on some level I feel sorry for him, but I was glad to see him finially pay for his crimes at the end of the Centauri Trilogy.
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    I disagree. I don't think Londo was an evil man at all. I think that he made some very bad choices, but not because he was evil. You could see it in his expression, his eyes when the mass drivers were used against Narn. He knew that it was wrong, he hated it. He also knew that he was helpless to do anything to stop it.
  • FreejackFreejack Jake the Not-so-Wise
    I don't believe Londo was evil either. I would parallel Londo with Michael Corleone, in so far that he tried to move away from doing bad things, but circumstances kept drawing him back to making what turned out to be bad decisions. The difference is that to a certain extent Londo was able reconcile with himself in the end.

    Jake
  • NelnoNelno Trainee
    I don't know, I got something totally different from londo's expression when he was watching the Narn homeworld being bombed. Yes it was wrong, and yes he hated it, but standing there and watching it made him realize just how much of a monster he had become. Londo liked to believe that there was nothing he could do to stop it, but as G'Kar later told him, that doesn't matter. He should have [I]tried[/I].

    And as for putting the keeper to sleep, while it was the right choice, I think he made it for the wrong reasons. He did not do it for Sheridan or Delenn, he did it because it was the single oppurtunity he had to free his people, but more importantly, he did it for himself. Lady Morella told him that he would have one final chance to avoid going to hell, and that he would have to sacrifice himself to free Sheridan. I think that is the main reason he helped them escape.
  • The Cabl3 GuyThe Cabl3 Guy Elite Ranger
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Nelno [/i]
    [B]I don't know, I got something totally different from londo's expression when he was watching the Narn homeworld being bombed. Yes it was wrong, and yes he hated it, but standing there and watching it made him realize just how much of a monster he had become. Londo liked to believe that there was nothing he could do to stop it, but as G'Kar later told him, that doesn't matter. He should have [I]tried[/I].

    And as for putting the keeper to sleep, while it was the right choice, I think he made it for the wrong reasons. He did not do it for Sheridan or Delenn, he did it because it was the single oppurtunity he had to free his people, but more importantly, he did it for himself. Lady Morella told him that he would have one final chance to avoid going to hell, and that he would have to sacrifice himself to free Sheridan. I think that is the main reason he helped them escape. [/B][/QUOTE]

    Hell? She never said anything about hell she said he would have three chances to change his fate. Lando let them go because he could why would (The real Lando) want to kill Sheridan & Delenn. He found a way to disable the keeper (alchol) & was able to do it long enough for Sheridan & Delenn to leave & for Gkar to kill him. (to prevent him from killing sheridan & delenn.) I think all in all Lando knew at that point he was goin to hell anyway.
  • BekennBekenn Sinclair's Duck
    Lando? What's Lando doing in a B5 discussion? Did he skip universes somehow?
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    Maybe he got lost and ended up at the wrong stage. :D


    I don't think Londo got G'Kar to kill him so he wouldn't kill Sheridan and Delenn. It was more because he knew that the Drakh were losing their hold on his world, and if he was gone they'd lose it completely.
  • VladVlad Earthforce Officer
    Dunno about that. Just from the series, it sure seemed like he sacrificed himself because once the keeper awoke, it would have forced him to stop Sheridan and Delenn from leaving. If I remember correctly, that's exactly the reason he gave before him and G'Kar strangled each other.
  • A2597A2597 Fanboy
    Londo...poor Londo...

    I must admit, I felt somewhat sorry for him in the show, but after the Centauri Trilagy...

    Poor guy! Definately the saddest of the charectors. :(
  • The Cabl3 GuyThe Cabl3 Guy Elite Ranger
    omfg i just realized i put an A in Londo wtf?
  • MessiahMessiah Failed Experiment
    You must pay by never watching Star Wars again (or by watching the entire B5 in a weekend).
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    You can't fit in a weekend. It's over 77 hours long. :)
  • RubberEagleRubberEagle What's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
    [B]You can't fit in a weekend. It's over 77 hours long. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
    then watch it in double-speed ;)
  • Call me crazy, but I always felt sorry for Mr. Morden. Does this make any sense to you? It won't if you only watched the series. Looking at the book though, in which the Icarus was destroyed... yeah, I feel sorry for him. He made the only choice he could; Life. Now, Mr. Morden enjoyed himself doing it. I think he made the best of a bad situation... but inside, I think he always hated it. I'll admit, a lot of my feelings about Morden are influenced by a fanfic, but nevertheless, you do see some of that in the series and in the books. Or maybe I just feel sorry for Morden because I know that, in the same situation, I'd probably end up making the same choice he did.
  • CurZCurZ Resident Hippy
    Of all the characters, I feel most sorry for Lando for ending up in the B5 universe.
  • VladVlad Earthforce Officer
    [quote]Mr. Morden??? Sorry can't agree with that...He loved every minute of his evil life. Like you said he CHOOSE to be evil. He got all he deserved. You have to love Vir waving at him just like he said he would with his head on a pike.

    [/quote]

    Read [U]The Shadow Within[/U]. He was hardly an evil person before serving the Shadows. Not to mention, given the circumstances in which he chose to serve them (don't want to spoil too much), I would probably have done the same thing.

    Now, whether his personality was adjusted after he chose to serve, or if he just got into it later, it's hard to say

    [quote]Hey how about how much he enjoyed telling Lennier he woud betray the Rangers.[/quote]

    Well, he got dragged all the way from death only to be forced to spend his short repreive from the grave with a prissy Minbari who refused to listen to him. I'd probably want to rub any future disasters in his face, too.
  • The Cabl3 GuyThe Cabl3 Guy Elite Ranger
    [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CurZ [/i]
    [B]Of all the characters, I feel most sorry for Lando for ending up in the B5 universe. [/B][/QUOTE]

    LMFAO STFU.
  • Vlad,

    Exactly! I always thought myself to be a lot like Morden when you got down to the core of it. He was a very interesting character, hardly as single minded and evil as most think him to be. It's there, it's just very, very hard to see. The books definitely help.

    We MD people think alike :P
  • [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Matt [Psionic] [/i]
    [B]He was a very interesting character, hardly as single minded and evil as most think him to be. It's there, it's just very, very hard to see. The books definitely help.[/B][/QUOTE]

    Morden himself said he wasn't an evil person in "Day of the Dead" if I recall, and I'd have to agree.

    Morden was never truely "evil", a term which has always been objective to different people and different races, something increased tenfold by the B5 universe. No one person can therefore be "evil" if people's perceptions of it are different. Even if he was "evil", Morden would have to have stuck to a belief system that was evil, but as we saw, he and the Shadows sold-out many of his equally "evil" parners.

    Morden was "amoral". He didn't care about the morals and values of any race unless his masters got what they wanted. Morden just as equally helped League Members during the Shadow war who could have been percieved as good, and at Z'Ha'Dum, Morden offered Sheridan, a generally nice guy an Alliance with the Shadows.
    In addition evil as we know it doesn't really have material cause. Morden and the Shadows wanted something real and tangible; followers and victory over the Vorlons.

    Morden and the Shadows were portrayed as evil because they only cared about thier own ajendas, (And having ships that looked like big black spiders didn't help, either!) which can be more accurately described as being selfish or amoral.

    Just my two credits.

    Regards,
    Morden
  • MessiahMessiah Failed Experiment
    Selfishness is most often referred (or portrayed as) evil in movies and books. Its a trait I would rather we rid ourselves of. But on the point of selfish people [i]being[/i] evil, well, thats a totally different thing, that I myself cannot judge (nor anyone else I think).
  • [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Messiah [/i]
    [B]Selfishness is most often referred (or portrayed as) evil in movies and books. Its a trait I would rather we rid ourselves of. But on the point of selfish people [i]being[/i] evil, well, thats a totally different thing, that I myself cannot judge (nor anyone else I think). [/B][/QUOTE]

    Indeed selifishness is an undesirable trait in most cases, but it shouldn't be portrayed as evil.

    What's more, you can argue forever about what is "evil", the phrase itself originates from religion, and do all religions [i]agree[/i] with eachother's philosophies?

    Regards,
    Morden
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