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Does anyone have this? Is so, is it any good. I'm a big D20 fan and i've been thinking about trying to find some of the B5 books. Especially the Technomage book, just to see how much of thier history and truths are actually in it.
Comments
a right royal shame
It's a hell of a lot better than the crappy Chameleon Eclectic Babylon Project RPG from years ago.
The system is crap.
Sure, it is very popular, but that doesn't mean its good. It's popular simply because 'Wizards of the Coast' (who own the D20 system) belong to Hasbro and therefore can afford much more adds and promotion than any other RPG company.
The D20 system is extremely restrictive. The abilities a character can learn are highly dependant on the character class. The character class pushes your character into a tiny box of stereotypes with very little freedom to develop an original character.
This works fine for a classic fantasy setting like D&D, where a Wizard is the only one who can cast magic spells and a Druid is the only one who can shapesift into an animal, but in B5 (or any modern setting for that matter) it doesn't work any more.
Why is the Agent the only one who can bypass security systems? Why can only a lurker have the 'survivors luck' ability? Why can only a high-level officer make a 'legendary speech' to inspire his troops? Why can only soldiers provide covering fire? Why can only diplomats have contacts?
The list goes on forever.
These are abilities that are typical for the character class, but prohibiting all other classes for learning them makes absolutely no sense.
All those restrictions are there to ensure game-balance. Granted, it is important because players will get frustrated if another players character is much better than theirs, but they are taking it too far.
The D20 system is so obsessed with maintaining balance that they remove nearly all possibility of choice.
It ensures that everyone has a cookie-cutter character.
The are curing a headache by cutting off the head.
A good example of the systems breakdown is the attempt to give stats for Lenir. (see core book page 143)
Lenir is a Minbari religious cast diplomat. This gives him only very weak combat abilities. He has a melee attack bonus of +3 (for those not familiar with the system: that's very low)
Yet we know that Lenir is a martial arts expert. E.g. in 'The Quality of Mercy' he defeated a whole bar full of pretty tough guys.
With melee +3 he would have been lucky to defeat even one of them.
But the D20 system simply doesn't allow to create a diplomat with high melee
A class-less system would have been much better suited for the B5 setting.
White-Wolf's Storytelling system or chaosium’s system from 'Call of Cthulhu' are good examples of class-less systems that would have worked perfectly for B5
With Mongoose, well, I dunno. Too often, their interpretation of the B5 universe conflicts with mine, and they occasionally fudge stats to make a given ship more or less difficult. I suppose I respect what they're [i]trying[/i] to do, but not the way in which they're doing it.
I must have also been the only one who disliked both the White Wolf and R Talsorian Cyberpunk systems.
[B]Alex, I actually agree with you on the class system, but if B5 is based on the same D20 system as D&D[...]
[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, it is the same system (with minor modifications)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Akrovah [/i]
[B] then you can have access to skills that are not part of your class, they are just harder to obtain high levels of.[/B][/QUOTE]
Class features are only availble to a certain class. (all the things I mentioned in my previous post are class-features)
If it's a skill you can buy others not listed with your class, but you have to pay double skill-points and can't get good skill-ranks (maximum skill level for cross-class skilles is halved)
This means if you are plaing a sterotype character, you're fine, but if you have a unique, original character, you are at a big disadvantage.
As I see it players should be rewarded for creativity, not punished.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Akrovah [/i]
[B] For instance, you Lenir example, while their stats are obviously incorrect, it is true that mst diplomats are not going to be well versed in combat, therefor a diplomatic character is going to have a harder time devolping those skills.[/B][/QUOTE]
Exactely my point. It's true for [i]most[/i] diplomats, but not all. Trying to go against stereotypes is extremely difficult/expensive.
In the case of combat abilities it's entirely impossible, as attack bonus is only dependat on class and level. You can't improove it with skil points.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Akrovah [/i]
[B] Anyway, even though i am sitting here defending it a little, Class systems do suck. The thing i was working on was purly based on how much you use a particular skill. The more you use it and are succesful, the more your skill increases. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's exactely what the system from 'Call of Cthulhu' does. The character sheet has a small checkbox next to eache skill. When you use a skill you can tick the box.
At the end of a story/chapter you can roll every used skill to see if you learned something new and can increase the skill.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Akrovah [/i]
[B]I was Pretty much goin to eliminate Levels. The only real "Classes" that i could think i would still haev to keep were going to be Technomage and telepath, since those involve more that just practicing a particular skill. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm probably going to do the same thing. Bevore we start playing we will have to rewrite moste of the rules.
They suxors.
White Wolf's D10 system is still the best that I've come across. In fact White Wolf do the best paper and dice, honest-to-Budha RPG, period.
Shadowrun is also brill.... and probably the most adaptable to the B5 universe.
[B]Wizards of the Coast is the Micro$oft of the RPG world... in every sense.
They suxors.
White Wolf's D10 system is still the best that I've come across. In fact White Wolf do the best paper and dice, honest-to-Budha RPG, period.
Shadowrun is also brill.... and probably the most adaptable to the B5 universe. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well each to their own, personally I couldn't stand the White Wolf system and I didn't like the games bar sometimes playing a bit of Werewolf.
Shadowrun, I've played 1st and 2nd edition, but the trouble with Shadowrun like any system is that each new supplement seemed to further complicate the game. Voodoo magic, Cyber Zombies and a lot of other stuff.
Personally, I much prefer the D20 B5 game to the old Babylon Project one which was really bad, and some other games on the D20 system aren't bad like Stargate SG-1, and Darwins World.
I dislike somethings about the Mongoose B5 world, frankly they messed up the colonies and earth history a bit more then they should have.
I do like them fleshing out the belt alliance, considering the messyness of the spaceways, and the way earthforce is always busy, having something like that makes sense, kinda like "pinkertons in space!" yet they are not horribly over powered. unless used in mass they cant stand up against a serious military force and even then its gonna get messy for them.
Some other things irk the hell out of me, but alot of the info is a beginning. Frankly the shear number of additions means that were gonna be able to fish a good amount of info out of the books.
Frankly Id like to take B5 and convert it to either the Silloutte rules of Dream Pod 9, or the rules set of Traveller New Era (maybe even T5 if its any good) Good space combat is important to any B5 rpg and I think those two systems can do it better then D20..
I loathe D20 for anything resembling modern stuff, and rather go with a more freeform RPG. Firstly D20 both underestimates weapons, even in the modern rules set, a full 7 rounds of .45 will almost always kill any human being, if they dont get medical treatment in the golden hour, but D20 doesnt reflect that. I like gun combat in SR because without armor, even using light pistols, in decent hands it can get real deadly real quick, and a heavy pistol gunfight with skilled characters is leathal as hell, (again barring severe medical intervention in a short period of time)
And D20's skills/classes just dont cut it either. In real life individuals have a variety of skills they can draw upon, and depending on what they experience they can aquire a variety more without changing their career, and the D20 system can not deal with that fact.
And dont get me started on levels, people can improve various parts, and skills while still letting others atrophy, and of course the ravages of age. I appreciate Travellers rules or Shadowruns rules which allow the character to focus on skills they use, or wish to learn (both systems even have rules for recieving training and education!) verses the weaknesses of D20.
Perhaps if there is ever a Space combat section for Shadowrun it might be usable, but considering how annoying the vehicular combat rules are I doubt it.
So Im still looking for something that can pull it off.