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Athlon64 In Q1 2005, or Pentium 4 in December
MT
Ranger
in Zocalo v2.0
I want to get a computer this December, but I've just found out that the AMD Athlon 64s won't have motherboards that support PCIe until the first quarter of 2005. If I wait, it means playing on a Duron 900 MHz for a few more months.
Is an Athlon 64 with PCIe worth waiting for, or should I just go with a Pentium 4?
Also, is there any significant difference between budget RAM and RAM from companies like Corsair?
The difference I'm seeing at cyberpowersystem.com between 2 GB of Geil Value RAM and 1 GB of Geil Ultra-X RAM or Kingston Hyper-X is $124. And the difference between 1 GB of the value and the Ultra-X/Hyper-X RAM is $133.
Is an Athlon 64 with PCIe worth waiting for, or should I just go with a Pentium 4?
Also, is there any significant difference between budget RAM and RAM from companies like Corsair?
The difference I'm seeing at cyberpowersystem.com between 2 GB of Geil Value RAM and 1 GB of Geil Ultra-X RAM or Kingston Hyper-X is $124. And the difference between 1 GB of the value and the Ultra-X/Hyper-X RAM is $133.
Comments
Is that true?
[B]I heard that PCIe isn't backward compatible with PCI cards... ?
Is that true? [/B][/QUOTE]
PCIe is phiscally a different sized card socket...so not they won't work.
However...almost every mobo I have seen that supports PCIe also has at least a couple regular PCI sockets on them, so I doubt this will be a big issue initially. Recall when PCI was phased in to replace ISA...we had both on mobos for quite a few years.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MT [/i]
[B]
Also, is there any significant difference between budget RAM and RAM from companies like Corsair?
The difference I'm seeing at cyberpowersystem.com between 2 GB of Geil Value RAM and 1 GB of Geil Ultra-X RAM or Kingston Hyper-X is $124. And the difference between 1 GB of the value and the Ultra-X/Hyper-X RAM is $133. [/B][/QUOTE]
Well...there is some difference. Specifically error tolerance and heat tolerance aren't as good on budget ram. You might get a perfect ram chip. You could also get one that is error prone. In general buget ram doesn't go through the rigerous quality control that highre priced ram does - this allows them to sell more % of the ram they make and thus be able to sell it cheaper. For most people these will probably work OK. But if you plan gaming or any other system intensive applications, or if you plan to not reboot regularly, or if you want to avoid potential HD data problems...I would recommend avoiding budget ram.
Let me go through these 3 things:
- System intensive apps: these can cause ram to heat up which will increase the chance of errors. All ram has some built in error checking, but this won't help when there are large numbers of errors.
- Rebooting? Well...windows will be much more unstable with ram errors.
- HD data problems...everything written to HD is written through ram. So if your ram is bad your data will be corrupted.
Well...all reasons to make sure you buy ram from somewhere that does good quality control. It won't be 100% perfect, but at least it will be well up there.
Note that I am not saying that all the budget places don't do good quality control...it is just that quality control is one of the first areas to go when trying to cut costs, so budget ram companies are more likely to have quality control problems.
Note: If you plan to keep the ram well cooled and don't plan to run high loads on it or overclock it, you can probably get away with budget ram.
Also, unless you plan to overclock it, don't get the Corsair XMS series ram - there is no need.
What if I bought an Athlon 64 now, with AGP. Then sometime down the line, I buy a new motherboard and 3d card, and just transfer all the old parts onto it. Would that be a bad idea? Would it be too difficult for someone who's only ever changed optical drives and 3d cards, or someone who has put together their own PC before?
(Latencies ~ how many clock pulses it takes until CPU can read/write data)
PCIe is entirely different bus when compared to PCI, instead of being parallel it's based on serial transfer with high clock speed. (kind a like IDE/ATA vs. SATA)
At least todays GPUs doesn't benefit from PCI express, also data transfer capacity isn't so dramatically bigger.
I think nextgen GPUs could benefit more from it, but in every case I would keep more important that graphic card has enough own memory. (it's always faster than using main RAM through some bus)
One Finnish computer magazine had some months ago image of mobo with support for both AGP and PCI express. (PCI express is "advanced" version of PCIe for graphic cards with bigger bus width)
[B]I'd like to expand my options a bit more, and take into account PCIe's lack of significant difference at the moment though almost certain advantage later on. And my desire to play today's games over the Christmas break instead of the middle of next semester.
What if I bought an Athlon 64 now, with AGP. Then sometime down the line, I buy a new motherboard and 3d card, and just transfer all the old parts onto it. Would that be a bad idea? Would it be too difficult for someone who's only ever changed optical drives and 3d cards, or someone who has put together their own PC before? [/B][/QUOTE]
That would work, but keep in mind you'd be spending a bit more to do so. :) A good option would be an Athlon64, suitable motherboard (nforce if you can) and the 6600GT AGP, which benchmarks show to be just as good as any current PCIe card (within reason).
seen [URL=http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/socket939/a8nsli-d/overview.htm]here[/URL] the Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe is above most p4 pci express motherboards because it comes ready for the dual PCI Express video card setup that will most likely feature very prominately in the next couple of years. It uses nVidias new nForce 4 chipset and it has native support for the new SATA 3gb specs. The ONLY drawback that I can see with this motherboard is that it still uses DDR RAM and not the new DDR2 format.
I have not found a reseller yet, but asus says to expect them on the shelf in december.
As for the RAM, Random Chaos and ET are correct, the cheaper the RAM the more you are taking a risk with your system. I personally have bought 1 manufacturer of RAM for the last 5 years. [URL=http://www.1stchoicememory.com/]Atlas Precision RAM[/URL] from 1st choice memory. 1st choice gives you 3 options of RAM, between bargain bin, name brand, and Atlas Precision. You can see the CAS Latency difference.
In the time I have been buying Atlas, I have had to use their return policy once. Good quality stuff.
[B]seen [URL=http://usa.asus.com/products/mb/socket939/a8nsli-d/overview.htm]here[/URL] the Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe is above most p4 pci express motherboards because it comes ready for the dual PCI Express video card setup that will most likely feature very prominately in the next couple of years.[/B][/QUOTE]
I wouldn't put much value for those, put two GPU's to PC and you have half kilowatt heater. (and neither that would be cheap)
And DDR2's have their own problems... like double latencies.
Now if only I could afford it :)
much cheaper than the p4 varient at around $400...
ET, yes it will be a hot system, you will have to ensure that you run proper cooling, but the benefits far outway any downside.
Mamimum PC ran an article about the new SLI motherboards and what the advantages are of running such a configuration. The performance boost is incredible and well worth the extra power required and heat produced.
[B]ET, yes it will be a hot system, you will have to ensure that you run proper cooling, but the benefits far outway any downside.[/B][/QUOTE]Yeah... circle is closing.
Soon everyone will have their own room sized heater with massive cooling systems chewing kilowatts of power.
And really environmental friendly.
[B]Mamimum PC ran an article about the new SLI motherboards and what the advantages are of running such a configuration. The performance boost is incredible and well worth the extra power required and heat produced. [/B][/QUOTE]
Is it really? I'm quite satisfied playing at 30 or 40 frames per second.
some games I play I get 80fps (half life 2 1024x768 32bit color)
Other things I run I can barely register 5fps (3d mark 2005??) I get seriously shitty frame rates.
and I will agree with you that most people are not going to notice a big difference in framerate with anything over 40fps, in the future (say 2 years maybe), I expect to see more and more graphic intesive games. Games that will put HL2 to shame, and it will be those games that will bring my already sub par system to its knees. The Dual vid card setup might let you squeeze an extra year out of a computer before its time to completely upgrade.
[B]My personal recommendation would be to hold off and get the AMD option, if you can. While nvidia has announced they will make nforce boards for intel chips, I doubt they'll be available by Q1 next year. :) So get the AMD option (the 64 bit is actually worth it) and if you can get a nice PCIe supporting nforce board. [/B][/QUOTE]
I went through this exact conundrum not a few months ago, but it was based around buying my 6800Ultra....PCIe or no PCIe....the truth of the matter is, and numerous benchmarks on Toms Hardware, Anandtech, and xbit all attest, that there is -zero- difference between PCIe and AGP8x video. period.
With that out of the way, my next question was, ok, now about 12-18 months later I want to up my rig speed from the 3 gig P4....where can I go?
I took a look at Anandtech's article [url=http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2149]here[/url] and you can see that the Athlon64 3500 (754 pin) handily stays well ahead of every single one of the Intel offerings in the CPU intensive Doom3 Engine. (Heck, even the A64 3000+ is places directly between intel's flagship EXTREME EDITION chips).
This made my choice easy:
[i]1/ Get the AGP 6800Ultra and drop it in my Pentium. HL2 and D3 will love it now.
2/ Buy a DFI Lanparty UT nf3 250GM Mobo now ([url=http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2198)]Here's why[/url])
3/ Pick up an AMD Athlon64 3500 when AMD cuts their prices in January '05 to make room for the new high-end parts.[/i]
You'll end up with a top gaming rig that will be relivant for at least 18 months after that. Plus you'll have one kickass chipset with the nForce3 250gb. Additionally, you'll offset buying DDR2 until you can buy it at speeds where (1) there is a clear performance advantage over DDR1, and (2) the higher clocked FSB boards and RAM will be at a more "reasonable" price. (DDR2 currently costs way to much for almost no gain--we won't see decisive advantages until 1066MHz FSBs become common.)
Back to PCIe: The only real advantage with going to PCIe is getting the ability to (1) SLI two PCIe geForce cards, or (2) be able to handle insane data transfer rates needed for high-end video server apps.
Additionally, it's never a good thing to get Generation 1 of anything.
Now for my Opinion:
rant
The world didn't really need PCIe for graphics cards. I see it as intel being able to use their market position to *force* everyone to use yet another one of their standards and pay the licensing fees attached to same. By eliminating AGP, it forces all of the chipset makers to license support for, and adapt PCIe to, their AMD offerings. It also forces all of the GPU manufacturers to go through a (very costly) 2-SKU transition period, as well as , you guessed it, pay intel a licensing fee.
PCIe does NOTHING for soundcard technology (I almost had a heart attack when the rumors were no legacy PCI card support would be in place, rendering my Audigy 2 Platinum obsolete overnight. Bleah.)
Technically, I understand why PCIe and AGP cannot coexist (DMA-related issues), but one has to ask themselves when even Doom3 and HL2 are not even hinting at pushing the bounds of the transfer bandwidth limit on AGP machines, why change now? for those 1-2% of the population that do ultra-high end server applications on home PCs?
Na.
It's all about the money. The rest is all marketing spin.
/rant
-R
Framerate speed is (mostly) on the GPU.
PCIe makes *no difference* in framerate. It's only affect *should* be to decrease texture data transfer times between the Main Memory and the GPU memory at level loads (read: faster level loading times in Doom3 and Half-life).
As it stands now, that is not the case: there is no difference between PCIe and AGP versions of the same cards in loading times.
SLI is a cool trick, but who's going to SLI $1000 worth of nVidia cards to go from 50 to 80 FPS? That will need what, an 800Watt power supply?
I'd just wait for the next generation part to roll around in 6 months instead :)
-R.
[B]
As for the RAM, Random Chaos and ET are correct, the cheaper the RAM the more you are taking a risk with your system. I personally have bought 1 manufacturer of RAM for the last 5 years. [URL=http://www.1stchoicememory.com/]Atlas Precision RAM[/URL] from 1st choice memory. 1st choice gives you 3 options of RAM, between bargain bin, name brand, and Atlas Precision. You can see the CAS Latency difference.
In the time I have been buying Atlas, I have had to use their return policy once. Good quality stuff. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll agree with that one. I use Mushkin myself. I usually go one bin higher in speed rating than I plan on using as well (currently Level 1 3500 DDR).
[url]http://www.mushkin.com[/url]
Newegg and the rest of the e-tailers carry them. Hasn't failed me once (looks nervously for wood to knock on)...
-R.
[url]http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?DEPA=0&description=13-136-147&ATT=Motherboards+AMD&CMP=OTC-d3alt1me[/url]
It's the "golden child" of all the hardware review sites right now. The guy who designed it was one of the top designers over at ASUS...DFI apparently lured him over.
-R.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MT [/i]
[B]Is an Athlon 64 with PCIe worth waiting for, or should I just go with a Pentium 4?[/b][/quote]
You would be a fool not to wait for the Athlon 64. :) The performance is well worth the wait, trust me.
[quote][b]Also, is there any significant difference between budget RAM and RAM from companies like Corsair?
The difference I'm seeing at cyberpowersystem.com between 2 GB of Geil Value RAM and 1 GB of Geil Ultra-X RAM or Kingston Hyper-X is $124. And the difference between 1 GB of the value and the Ultra-X/Hyper-X RAM is $133. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats like asking is there a difference between a burnt-out pinto and a Ferrari. I'm going to tell you right off that you should NEVER skimp out when it comes to buying parts for your computer. ALWAYS buy name-brand hardware, no matter what the price difference is. Cheap RAM will do nothing but cause you trouble. I've seen cheap RAM cause BSOD for no reason at all. Its like the old saying "You get what you pay for". It DEFINITELY applies to computers.
As for "Geil Value" crap, I wouldn't even take that as a gift. Geil is the PC Chips of RAM. They are the shittiest of shit. Not even Comcrap or D(h)ell use their crap. If you want RAM at a decent price, I suggest you go Corsair or Kingston.
[url=http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-145-440&depa=1]Click me[/url] (Corsair 1GB dual channel kit (2x 512MB)) $154 (which is a pretty decent price) Or you could save a couple bucks and go [url=http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-145-440&depa=1]Crosair[/url] and get a [b]lifetime[/b] warranty along with it.
[B]Anyone interested in that DFI MB I mentioned above: you can get it for $99USD at newegg:
[url]http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?DEPA=0&description=13-136-147&ATT=Motherboards+AMD&CMP=OTC-d3alt1me[/url]
It's the "golden child" of all the hardware review sites right now. The guy who designed it was one of the top designers over at ASUS...DFI apparently lured him over.
-R. [/B][/QUOTE]
Pity its only socket 754. Thats only going to be able to run the "budget" Athlon 64 chips, and is due to be phased out after a while. I'd go Socket 930 if at all possible.
[B]Note to all:
Framerate speed is (mostly) on the GPU.
PCIe makes *no difference* in framerate. It's only affect *should* be to decrease texture data transfer times between the Main Memory and the GPU memory at level loads (read: faster level loading times in Doom3 and Half-life).
As it stands now, that is not the case: there is no difference between PCIe and AGP versions of the same cards in loading times.
SLI is a cool trick, but who's going to SLI $1000 worth of nVidia cards to go from 50 to 80 FPS? That will need what, an 800Watt power supply?
I'd just wait for the next generation part to roll around in 6 months instead :)
-R. [/B][/QUOTE]
My understanding of one of the reasons why transfer rates weren't any faster is most PCIe graphics cards now days run a brdige from PCIe to AGP internally.
Now I saw a review of a PCIe native nVidia top end graphics card (whatever their numbre was) a couple days back. It was interesting benchmarked data. The PCIe native ran slower then the AGP using an AGP to PCIe bridge...really amazing considering it was the same exact card and the AGP was only done using a bridge. Does this indicate that PCIe is actually slower then AGP??
As for SLI, I suspect where it will become the most useful is in 3d rendering in apps that utilize the GPU to do some of the processing.
--RC
[B]Technically, I understand why PCIe and AGP cannot coexist (DMA-related issues)...[/B][/QUOTE]
Like I mentioned about that Finnish computer magazine which had photo of one mobo whose maker must had missed fact they don't fit to same mobo and made it working.
So here's more.
[img]http://www.ecsusa.com/aboutUs/images/915_2.jpg[/img]
[i]For the Graphic feature, this motherboard provides an AGP compatible slot, the AGP Express slot, as well as a PCI Express x16 slot. This AGP Express slot is not the genuine AGP slot and may not support some AGP graphic cards.[/i]
[url]http://www.ecsusa.com/aboutUs/r_915p-a.html[/url]
[url]http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/chipsets/display/20040201182440.html[/url]
[url]http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.html?i=1954[/url]
We have really come to an empass in computing technology, there isnt anything really driving it forward, so new hardware is starting to come a little bit slower.
We need some good old fashion space exploration to push it along (guess what post I just got finished reading). :D
Seriously though, in about two years people will be saying agpwho?