Measuring radiation is not mystical or secret. [quote]I'm just not sure we are really told what is really going on. We can't say for sure that those radiation readings are reflecting the truth or not, unless we have the means to check for ourselves, which most of us don't.[/quote] Is complete poppycock. This is not some government only has these tools conspiracy. A geiger counter is relatively trivial to build yourself. Really it sounds like you are not willing to do your homework, so instead you are telling the teacher that they are wrong even though you yourself have no evidence because, well, you never did your homework.
ShadowDancerWhen I say, "Why aye, gadgie," in my heart I say, "Och aye, laddie."London, UK
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and estimate that in 50yrs time the official human toll from Fukushima will be zero cases of cancer directly related to the radiation release, and maybe 2-3 cases where it's possible there was a <1% chance of the cancer being related to the radiation.
Pretty much in line with [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident"]Three Mile Island[/URL]
[QUOTE=croxis;192162]Is complete poppycock. This is not some government only has these tools conspiracy. A geiger counter is relatively trivial to build yourself. Really it sounds like you are not willing to do your homework, so instead you are telling the teacher that they are wrong even though you yourself have no evidence because, well, you never did your homework.[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? You have not more evidence to back up your claims of the data collected on the site of the Fukushima power plant. As far as I'm concerned you have no leg to stand on either.
I see your poppycock and raise you 20 pussyfeathers.
Nice chart there messiah, at least this one looks like someone knew how to use color gradients to great effect. Take that croxis. :D
BTW what's with the bananas?
ShadowDancerWhen I say, "Why aye, gadgie," in my heart I say, "Och aye, laddie."London, UK
You'll get more radiation from the bananas than you will Fukushima
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
WTF is wrong with you Stingray that you refuse to do any research or investigation of data sources before saying that they don't exist?
There are a lot of independent scientists putting out data on radiation in Japan. Sure, not [I]at[/I] the reactor, but if you are talking about human impact radiation, only authorized workers are closer to the reactor than scientists. Japan is a very scientifically advanced society with very knowledgeable people with ready access to technology and a free flow of information, unlike Russia during Chernobyl. We are not relying on government statements alone to say that radiation isn't at harmful levels away from the reactor. When you cannot go test it yourself you have to evaluate the quality of the data sources, and the data sources are diverse meaning much more confidence than a single source.
I do say that TEPCO isn't telling everything, but from what I have seen, I believe that the government appears to be passing on everything TEPCO tells them, while at the same time not being alarmist. Frankly, I have been impressed with the quality of the information coming out.
You can sit in your tin foil hat cocoon for all I care, though...when you learn the scientific process and understand how scientific papers are published and is vetted by multiple sources you can come back out...
Stingray is also obviously not familiar with XKCD...
Also Singray, as I said before, my claims are cited and can be independently verified. Yours are not.
Infact, the two graphs show the same numbers for their examples. That probably means one of two things. Either the same source information was used, or these are very standard benchmark numbers that is supported with a great deal of data....
You have no citations.
you have no data.
You have nothing other than what I said before. You are that student who is telling the teacher that they are wrong, but is getting an F in the class because they don't do the homework (true story of my lab partner in one of my biology class in Uni. Then wanted an exception from the evolution unit for religious reasons. Lets just say I ended up needing to find a new lab partner!).
It isn't the irradation (but that can do it as well). Bananas have Potassium, which have isotopes that are radioactive. After Carbon dating it is Potassium dating. A fresh banana right off the tree is radioactive.
Plutonium is not like eating a bananas , geting x rays, or flying on a plane. Dodging possalbe neutron particles while mopping up nucler lava is a little differnt scale guys. I millonth of a gram of plutonium is deadly.
ShadowDancerWhen I say, "Why aye, gadgie," in my heart I say, "Och aye, laddie."London, UK
Before you upset the natives any more PSI-KILLER, might I suggest a quick read of some [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium"]basics[/URL] about Plutonium. The following is of particular note: [QUOTE]"There were about 25 workers from Los Alamos National Laboratory who inhaled a considerable amount of plutonium dust during the 1940's; according to the hot-particle theory, each of them has a 99.5% chance of being dead from lung cancer by now, but there has not been a single lung cancer among them.[/QUOTE]
Is it too much to ask to stick with one type of measurement unit for radioactivity?
Panic aside, all we can do now is watch and see what happens next.
ShadowDancerWhen I say, "Why aye, gadgie," in my heart I say, "Och aye, laddie."London, UK
I'm not denying its bad, all I'm saying is that there needs to be less hype and more clear, concise and most importantly, [I]scientific[/I] and [I]rational[/I] thought and debate.
[QUOTE=Stingray;192211]Is it too much to ask to stick with one type of measurement unit for radioactivity?
Panic aside, all we can do now is watch and see what happens next.[/QUOTE]
If we cant agree on one measurement for length, what makes you think radioactivity would be easier. ;)
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE=Stingray;192156]/sarcasm "What I find really, really sad is that scientists and people like you insist on putting people's lives in harms way just to prove a point and get a prize for it."[/quote]
That's pretty offensive. Did you forget the evacuation zone? Why do you think scientists just want prizes?
[quote]For one thing, a local tsunami does not affect the rest of the world as much as nuclear radiation does. Europe was affected by Chernobyl and that was just one reactor. I'm still taking a prescribed Iodine pill every day to deal with the consequences. A close relative got her thyroid gland removed due to thyroid cancer. The scar the surgery leaves behind is called the [B][I]Chernobyl necklace[/I][/B] in the Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
I've seen thyroid cancer up close myself. Your relative has my condolences. I don't know why you're taking an iodine pill every day, but if it's to prevent your thyroid taking up radioactive iodine from Chernobyl, then I don't understand why you're doing so. The iodine from Chernobyl decayed long ago.
If you want to put your mind at ease, you need to do some reading. [url=http://mitnse.com/]This site[/url] is a very good source of factual information, particularly about how the reactors actually work. The design of Chernobyl was fatally flawed and the people who allowed it to be built were criminals, in my opinion. Fortunately, noone outside the Soviet Union was stupid enough to build such a flawed reactor. There are many safety features in a design even as old and out-dated as Fukushima's. Read that site, starting at the beginning, and you'll get a much better understanding of what's going on than by reading articles by reporters who don't have a clue.
Firstly, I don't trust the opinion of any nuclear expert outside of Japan, whether they're saying it's safe or dangerous, because they undoubtedly do not have access to all the information. He may have done good things in the US, but he had direct access to the information there. (I'd also like to note that his qualifications are in cooling tower design. It may be related, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's an expert on radiation.)
The video itself is terrible. He says one thing (e.g. "lots of steam released") while the video pops up things like "lots of radiation released." He claims that it's "known" that the containment has been breached, when it is not, doing his best to imply that there is fuel leaking out. The plant engineers [i]suspect[/i] that there may be breaches in the suppression pool of one of the reactors, allowing cooling water to leak out. I have no idea where he pulled that "70% of the fuel is damaged" figure from, when noone's even gone near the reactors to inspect the fuel yet. He uses huge numbers to scare people, such as "2,000,000 becquerels," which is a useless value for judging dosage. He's also playing with units to get those bigger-sounding numbers. The becquerel is used to measure the radioactivity in a substance. It's not used to measure the background radiation level in a place that would affect people; that's what the sievert is for. Apparently, if you received 2,000,000Bq of radiation, it's the same as a 100mSv dose - the same as living at the legal yearly limit for an extra year, but I'm not sure of the reliability of the site that gave me that figure. There doesn't seem to be an official direct conversion, probably because it's physically meaningless.
If they measured that sort of level outside the plant, it was a spike. The data from a [i]large[/i] number of sources is available on many, many sites around the net, including national government sites, prefectural government sites and independent research institute sites. None of them have shown a continual sustained reading above 45μSv unless you're inside the plant grounds. [url=http://fleep.com/earthquake/]This site[/url] has appeared recently, and does a very good job of graphing many of the diverse official sources of data, but beware that it doesn't use the same scale on each chart.
[QUOTE=Messiah;192214]If we cant agree on one measurement for length, what makes you think radioactivity would be easier. ;)[/QUOTE]
The only countries that haven't officially are the Burma, Liberia and the USA. Burma is a brutal dictatorship and Liberia is recovering from 30 years of civil war. What's the USA's excuse? :p
[QUOTE=Biggles;192217]That's pretty offensive. Did you forget the evacuation zone? Why do you think scientists just want prizes?[/QUOTE]
It was a direct response to your own comment, hence the sarcastic paraphrasing. I guess I should have said that I was offended by it instead. Sorry about that. I will not post any further links or comments on this matter as you seem to have access to everything you need. The media are doing a poor job which isn't really news, but one has to wonder where they are getting their information from? Scientists are people too, who doesn't like a pat on the back once in a while, hence the prizes. :)
[QUOTE]I've seen thyroid cancer up close myself. Your relative has my condolences.[/QUOTE]
That's just it, all this tragedy didn't have to be and many people had to suffer through this and do so to this day. And that suffering radiates, no pun intended, over to the other relatives who didn't need the surgery. The socalled unintended consequences.
[QUOTE]I don't know why you're taking an iodine pill every day, but if it's to prevent your thyroid taking up radioactive iodine from Chernobyl, then I don't understand why you're doing so. The iodine from Chernobyl decayed long ago.
[/QUOTE]
I will need to get back to you on that. Now I don't feel so bad for being a bit sarcastic before. :)
[QUOTE]If you want to put your mind at ease, you need to do some reading. [url=http://mitnse.com/]This site[/url] is a very good source of factual information, particularly about how the reactors actually work. The design of Chernobyl was fatally flawed and the people who allowed it to be built were criminals, in my opinion. Fortunately, noone outside the Soviet Union was stupid enough to build such a flawed reactor. There are many safety features in a design even as old and out-dated as Fukushima's. Read that site, starting at the beginning, and you'll get a much better understanding of what's going on than by reading articles by reporters who don't have a clue.[/QUOTE]
Will do.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE=Stingray;192218]It was a direct response to your own comment, hence the sarcastic paraphrasing. I guess I should have said that I was offended by it instead. Sorry about that.[/quote]
I apologize for offending you. The way the media has handled this whole Fukushima thing has annoyed me a lot. It's not just the misconceptions that it has created in so many people or the distraction from the people who actually are suffering, but it's had a bad effect here, too. A lot a foreigners here literally ran away, ignoring what their Japanese friends told them (some of them even didn't tell their host researchers they were leaving), because of overblown foreign media reports.
Speaking of foreigners, it sure didn't help that embassy staff members were evacuated shortly after the start of the Fukushima crisis. So it's not just the press that caused some serious harm.
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Actually, I don't recall any embassies that evacuated staff members. A number offered voluntary evacuation of family of staff, but that was largely due to the aftermath of the Earthquake more than the nuclear issue.
ShadowDancerWhen I say, "Why aye, gadgie," in my heart I say, "Och aye, laddie."London, UK
I apologise too. I have rather short patience for even the people in the right sometimes, which is a particular failing of mine!
[QUOTE=Random Chaos;192224]Actually, I don't recall any embassies that evacuated staff members. A number offered voluntary evacuation of family of staff, but that was largely due to the aftermath of the Earthquake more than the nuclear issue.[/QUOTE]
That's ok, just google "tokyo embassy evacuation" and you will find all the news about it.
Hardly any news outlet talks about the tsunami victims anymore, it's almost like it never happened. :(
[QUOTE=ShadowDancer;192225]I apologise too. I have rather short patience for even the people in the right sometimes, which is a particular failing of mine![/QUOTE]
We all deal a bit different with tragedy. That's just the nature of the beast.
Comments
Measuring radiation is not mystical or secret. [quote]I'm just not sure we are really told what is really going on. We can't say for sure that those radiation readings are reflecting the truth or not, unless we have the means to check for ourselves, which most of us don't.[/quote] Is complete poppycock. This is not some government only has these tools conspiracy. A geiger counter is relatively trivial to build yourself. Really it sounds like you are not willing to do your homework, so instead you are telling the teacher that they are wrong even though you yourself have no evidence because, well, you never did your homework.
Pretty much in line with [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident"]Three Mile Island[/URL]
Right? That's how it works..
Spider. Spider powers.
Body builder. A motherfraggin' hulk, man!
What are you talking about? You have not more evidence to back up your claims of the data collected on the site of the Fukushima power plant. As far as I'm concerned you have no leg to stand on either.
I see your poppycock and raise you 20 pussyfeathers.
BTW what's with the bananas?
There are a lot of independent scientists putting out data on radiation in Japan. Sure, not [I]at[/I] the reactor, but if you are talking about human impact radiation, only authorized workers are closer to the reactor than scientists. Japan is a very scientifically advanced society with very knowledgeable people with ready access to technology and a free flow of information, unlike Russia during Chernobyl. We are not relying on government statements alone to say that radiation isn't at harmful levels away from the reactor. When you cannot go test it yourself you have to evaluate the quality of the data sources, and the data sources are diverse meaning much more confidence than a single source.
I do say that TEPCO isn't telling everything, but from what I have seen, I believe that the government appears to be passing on everything TEPCO tells them, while at the same time not being alarmist. Frankly, I have been impressed with the quality of the information coming out.
You can sit in your tin foil hat cocoon for all I care, though...when you learn the scientific process and understand how scientific papers are published and is vetted by multiple sources you can come back out...
Also Singray, as I said before, my claims are cited and can be independently verified. Yours are not.
Infact, the two graphs show the same numbers for their examples. That probably means one of two things. Either the same source information was used, or these are very standard benchmark numbers that is supported with a great deal of data....
You have no citations.
you have no data.
You have nothing other than what I said before. You are that student who is telling the teacher that they are wrong, but is getting an F in the class because they don't do the homework (true story of my lab partner in one of my biology class in Uni. Then wanted an exception from the evolution unit for religious reasons. Lets just say I ended up needing to find a new lab partner!).
Now I will. :(
I learn something new every day, they irradiate bananas to delay ripening!!
Anything good in life is either illegal, immoral, fattening or irradiated. :(
So yes, deadly.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM3rkzJobx4[/url]
[url]http://www.fairewinds.com/[/url]
Panic aside, all we can do now is watch and see what happens next.
Panic aside, all we can do now is watch and see what happens next.[/QUOTE]
If we cant agree on one measurement for length, what makes you think radioactivity would be easier. ;)
That's pretty offensive. Did you forget the evacuation zone? Why do you think scientists just want prizes?
[quote]For one thing, a local tsunami does not affect the rest of the world as much as nuclear radiation does. Europe was affected by Chernobyl and that was just one reactor. I'm still taking a prescribed Iodine pill every day to deal with the consequences. A close relative got her thyroid gland removed due to thyroid cancer. The scar the surgery leaves behind is called the [B][I]Chernobyl necklace[/I][/B] in the Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
I've seen thyroid cancer up close myself. Your relative has my condolences. I don't know why you're taking an iodine pill every day, but if it's to prevent your thyroid taking up radioactive iodine from Chernobyl, then I don't understand why you're doing so. The iodine from Chernobyl decayed long ago.
If you want to put your mind at ease, you need to do some reading. [url=http://mitnse.com/]This site[/url] is a very good source of factual information, particularly about how the reactors actually work. The design of Chernobyl was fatally flawed and the people who allowed it to be built were criminals, in my opinion. Fortunately, noone outside the Soviet Union was stupid enough to build such a flawed reactor. There are many safety features in a design even as old and out-dated as Fukushima's. Read that site, starting at the beginning, and you'll get a much better understanding of what's going on than by reading articles by reporters who don't have a clue.
[QUOTE=PSI-KILLER;192210]Arnie Gundersun Chief Nuclear Engineer
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM3rkzJobx4[/url]
[url]http://www.fairewinds.com/[/url][/QUOTE]
Firstly, I don't trust the opinion of any nuclear expert outside of Japan, whether they're saying it's safe or dangerous, because they undoubtedly do not have access to all the information. He may have done good things in the US, but he had direct access to the information there. (I'd also like to note that his qualifications are in cooling tower design. It may be related, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's an expert on radiation.)
The video itself is terrible. He says one thing (e.g. "lots of steam released") while the video pops up things like "lots of radiation released." He claims that it's "known" that the containment has been breached, when it is not, doing his best to imply that there is fuel leaking out. The plant engineers [i]suspect[/i] that there may be breaches in the suppression pool of one of the reactors, allowing cooling water to leak out. I have no idea where he pulled that "70% of the fuel is damaged" figure from, when noone's even gone near the reactors to inspect the fuel yet. He uses huge numbers to scare people, such as "2,000,000 becquerels," which is a useless value for judging dosage. He's also playing with units to get those bigger-sounding numbers. The becquerel is used to measure the radioactivity in a substance. It's not used to measure the background radiation level in a place that would affect people; that's what the sievert is for. Apparently, if you received 2,000,000Bq of radiation, it's the same as a 100mSv dose - the same as living at the legal yearly limit for an extra year, but I'm not sure of the reliability of the site that gave me that figure. There doesn't seem to be an official direct conversion, probably because it's physically meaningless.
If they measured that sort of level outside the plant, it was a spike. The data from a [i]large[/i] number of sources is available on many, many sites around the net, including national government sites, prefectural government sites and independent research institute sites. None of them have shown a continual sustained reading above 45μSv unless you're inside the plant grounds. [url=http://fleep.com/earthquake/]This site[/url] has appeared recently, and does a very good job of graphing many of the diverse official sources of data, but beware that it doesn't use the same scale on each chart.
[QUOTE=Messiah;192214]If we cant agree on one measurement for length, what makes you think radioactivity would be easier. ;)[/QUOTE]
The only countries that haven't officially are the Burma, Liberia and the USA. Burma is a brutal dictatorship and Liberia is recovering from 30 years of civil war. What's the USA's excuse? :p
It was a direct response to your own comment, hence the sarcastic paraphrasing. I guess I should have said that I was offended by it instead. Sorry about that. I will not post any further links or comments on this matter as you seem to have access to everything you need. The media are doing a poor job which isn't really news, but one has to wonder where they are getting their information from? Scientists are people too, who doesn't like a pat on the back once in a while, hence the prizes. :)
[QUOTE]I've seen thyroid cancer up close myself. Your relative has my condolences.[/QUOTE]
That's just it, all this tragedy didn't have to be and many people had to suffer through this and do so to this day. And that suffering radiates, no pun intended, over to the other relatives who didn't need the surgery. The socalled unintended consequences.
[QUOTE]I don't know why you're taking an iodine pill every day, but if it's to prevent your thyroid taking up radioactive iodine from Chernobyl, then I don't understand why you're doing so. The iodine from Chernobyl decayed long ago.
[/QUOTE]
I will need to get back to you on that. Now I don't feel so bad for being a bit sarcastic before. :)
[QUOTE]If you want to put your mind at ease, you need to do some reading. [url=http://mitnse.com/]This site[/url] is a very good source of factual information, particularly about how the reactors actually work. The design of Chernobyl was fatally flawed and the people who allowed it to be built were criminals, in my opinion. Fortunately, noone outside the Soviet Union was stupid enough to build such a flawed reactor. There are many safety features in a design even as old and out-dated as Fukushima's. Read that site, starting at the beginning, and you'll get a much better understanding of what's going on than by reading articles by reporters who don't have a clue.[/QUOTE]
Will do.
I apologize for offending you. The way the media has handled this whole Fukushima thing has annoyed me a lot. It's not just the misconceptions that it has created in so many people or the distraction from the people who actually are suffering, but it's had a bad effect here, too. A lot a foreigners here literally ran away, ignoring what their Japanese friends told them (some of them even didn't tell their host researchers they were leaving), because of overblown foreign media reports.
Speaking of foreigners, it sure didn't help that embassy staff members were evacuated shortly after the start of the Fukushima crisis. So it's not just the press that caused some serious harm.
That's ok, just google "tokyo embassy evacuation" and you will find all the news about it.
Hardly any news outlet talks about the tsunami victims anymore, it's almost like it never happened. :(
We all deal a bit different with tragedy. That's just the nature of the beast.