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IMO gross behavior on our boards...
Konrad
Ranger
in Zocalo v2.0
I was horrified to log on today to find at least three people who are posting with a hammer and sickle on a red field as their aviators. Given my family history I almost became sick to my stomach at the sight. These three people are clearly only trying to stir up controversy and are making this place VERY uncomfortable for me and perhaps others. You can express your support from communal, socialist, and communist systems without flaunting a flag under which at least 20 million people were murdered in COLD BLOOD in my face. Some of those 20,000,000 were my blood relatives.
I am enraged by the lack of thought and common courtesy by these people. Perhaps there should be a restriction on using nationalist symbols in avatars. I find that symbol as offensive as the following:
[IMG]http://www.flags.net/elements/gif_flags/WWIIGERM003.GIF[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.panzerfaust.com/flags/flag_nsdap_navaljack.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.militariacollection.com/immagini/flags/ss%20flags.gif[/IMG]
I only posted those to help you feel what I am feeling. I may be way out of line - but it only goes to show you just how out of line they are too. To many of my family members were killed under both soviet and fascist flags for there to be ANY situation where it would be appropriate - even if jokingly - to show those flags with any kind of pride.
In my opinion those who are doing it are insensitive assholes.
Feel free to ban me - I don't want to be a part of a place that turns a blind eye to the support of mass murder.
I am enraged by the lack of thought and common courtesy by these people. Perhaps there should be a restriction on using nationalist symbols in avatars. I find that symbol as offensive as the following:
[IMG]http://www.flags.net/elements/gif_flags/WWIIGERM003.GIF[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.panzerfaust.com/flags/flag_nsdap_navaljack.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.militariacollection.com/immagini/flags/ss%20flags.gif[/IMG]
I only posted those to help you feel what I am feeling. I may be way out of line - but it only goes to show you just how out of line they are too. To many of my family members were killed under both soviet and fascist flags for there to be ANY situation where it would be appropriate - even if jokingly - to show those flags with any kind of pride.
In my opinion those who are doing it are insensitive assholes.
Feel free to ban me - I don't want to be a part of a place that turns a blind eye to the support of mass murder.
Comments
At least i can take pride in being the first.....
As for Stalin, who I assume you are referring to with the 20million comment (although the numbers are more like 2.5 -> 7 million, with 20million deaths in the war with Germany, which I can blame on Stalin aswell I guess), he was a ruthless character and his policies are not one's I agree with.
I do, however, find the likes of Lenin, Troksky,Kruschev to be figures of admiration and respect to me, and of course Karl Marx's works (which I'm sure you haven't read). The Hammer and Sickle represents Communism, the workers, not Stalin.
I'm not being insensitive at all, and I resent the implication. Get your facts straight. I'm a communist, not a butcher.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Konrad [/i]
[B]... at least three people who are posting with a hammer and sickle on a red field as their avatars...[/B][/QUOTE]
I noticed it weeks ago... I was just ignoring it.
;)
Now, if you want to see something REALLY offensive, start using the European Union flag of Blue with 12 Yellow stars, and watch how many people start whining...
:D
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Konrad [/i]
[B]Perhaps there should be a restriction on using nationalist symbols in avatars. [/B][/QUOTE]
The above was to answer your comment about the US flag - Did you even read my post?
Second:
I have in fact read "Das Kapital" auf Deutsch and in English - I have it here in my bookshelf in fact. Don't be so quick to judge.
Third: Nikita Khrushchev is known to have ordered the mass murders of "Quislings", "Petains" and other opponents of the Soviet regime when he was the chief of the Ukrainian Communist Party so he and the others were not so innocent.
Fourth: I never labled you a butcher - I said you were flaunting a flag under which many of my family members were murdered and I said [B]"You can express your support from communal, socialist, and communist systems without flaunting a flag..."[/B] in my first post.
[B]Hmm..
At least i can take pride in being the first.....
As for Stalin, who I assume you are referring to with the 20million comment (although the numbers are more like 2.5 -> 7 million, with 20million deaths in the war with Germany, which I can blame on Stalin aswell I guess), he was a ruthless character and his policies are not one's I agree with.
I do, however, find the likes of Lenin, Troksky,Kruschev to be figures of admiration and respect to me, and of course Karl Marx's works (which I'm sure you haven't read). The Hammer and Sickle represents Communism, the workers, not Stalin.
I'm not being insensitive at all, and I resent the implication. Get your facts straight. I'm a communist, not a butcher. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actualy under Lenin and Kruschev alot of people were also systematicly butchered.. the total of genocide APART from the war in the Soveit Union IS probably about 20 million, infact the toal death count of communist regiems in the 20th century is probably about 80 million, maybe as high as a 100 million,
A group of french socialists wrote a very well reaserched book called "The Black Book of Communism" I suggest you read it.
[B]Perhaps there should be a restriction on using nationalist symbols in avatars.[/B][/QUOTE]
I understand why you may find these symbols offensive, however we all have the right to free speech. And while you (and myself for that matter) may disagree with Communist and NAZI ideas, people have a right to express them.
I suspect if they were honest about wanting more people to join their cause they would be more interested in showing moderation and opening civil dialogue than showing off a symbol which only opens feelings of discomfort.
You don't encourage a North Korean to be open minded to western ideas by waving a US flag in his face and shoving a big mac down his throat. Your also not going to encourage me to be open minded to communal idea's by showing that flag. I may have been quick to call for regulation of the matter but I doubt they are ever going to show the respect I hoped for. :(
and no i'm not some sort of anarchist "hey lets go against them" type of person.
I tend to agree that we should not allow nationalism/idealism to be infused into every post we make. Would it be right if I esposed views of white supremacy (which I DO NOT agree with)? Or that you should all start a monarchy (again, I dont believe in that either)? Or that capitalism is the only way? I do not mind you bringing your political sentiments up in the proper places (such as discussions of politics or government) but to allow every post you make to so blatently state your views should not be allowed. Especially if pictures like these evoke images and thoughts of death (which they do- the russian revolution claimed [b]MILLIONS[/b] of lives).
I won't wave my flag here if you dont wave yours.
+ Maybe you should pay more Attenion to History. That Before Russia went Communist, People there had less freedoms then the had under Communisum...... Stalin and Lenin where not ture Communist.
And Countrys that go Communist go Communist for very good resons.
And Maybe you ppl should Find out what Communisum Realy is......
And Read up on Karl Marx
And as Jambo Said, Alot of ppl have died under the US Flag...... how about we Bann the US flag....
And be Thankful that we are not Facist.
Oh wait, I just remebered........ You ppl like facsium Becuase there is Captalisum in Facsium...
Please Dont get me into a Rant
You're right. You are a Firstone. Your fellow Firstones should respect your right to not be confronted with a symbol with which you personally associate with some rather distressing parts of history. So be it, on those grounds alone the symbols you refer to should be removed. It's what matters to you Konrad that counts.
To others the symbol is just the flag of the USSR, to others it is a symbol for Communism. Incidentally, whats wrong with the flag for 'Red' China ? What's wrong with just a red flag if you really want to be symbolic of a communist ideaology.
I'm sure Jambo et al are not going to suddenly become extreme right wing as soon as they pull thier avatars. They should consider thier community first.
Hell just give the people in question new subheads... 'rabid communist', as we already have a 'democrat from hell'. Problem solved. Though if they do have some conviction in thier beliefs they should find some way of compensating Sanfam for the work in hacking scripts...
~~~~
Religion and ideaology kills.
This tepid little storm in a teacup is where world wars ferment.
Would you like it if I hung of the barricades ranting about my humanist/zen fluid kind of faith ? Or some raving zealous LDS, Catholic, Buhdist , Super Democrat, Super Tory decided to try and come 'convert' us ?
In short...
don't advertise your religious or idealogical beliefs outside threads where those things are raised.
Those who do, fall into the basket of 'methinks he/she protests too much', ie if you have to keep convincing everyone else of your beliefs... just who is the one really needing the convincing. You'll find the people with the loudest voices have the shallowest faith.
Konrad: The hammer and sickle are not offencive by what they represent, but by what that symbol brings to mind. I can see how you could see it offencive, my first impression wasn't a great one either, but then I thought of what they symbol actually means, not what it brings to mind. I could easily use a swastika as my avatar. before the Nazis used it, it was a symbol of hope, and good luck. I have seen a old peice of jewlery with a swastika placed in emeralds, would have been worn to church, etc. However the natzis currupted its meaning. The same is true with the Sickle and Hammer. I know it is hard, but try to think about what it really represents, not the crimes commited under its flag.
in regaurds to all the people talking about the US flag, etc. Yes, to true. Most of the time I can say that it was a symbol of the forces of good, think of WWI, WWI, the Gulf War, etc. Yet of course, that is not allways true. The Phillapine American war is IMO, the lowest point in american history. Vietnam...That list can go on as well. But remember, the same can be said for every nation on this planet.
I am all for freespeech, and under that, Konrad has my support just as Comm Simmonds and Jambo have my support to show a symbol that symbolizes the working class.
It raises an interesting point, evil manages to currupt everything, right down to a symbol of peace, hope, the people, and even animals. Think about it, the Eagle was used by so many civalizations, Rome, Nazis, USofA...and depending on its stance it brings completely different responces.
So Konrad, I encurage you to try to think not of the evil done under the symbol, but what the symbol actually stands for.
[B]OK, I can see both sides of the argument here....I guess I'll enter the debate.
Konrad: The hammer and sickle are not offencive by what they represent, but by what that symbol brings to mind. I can see how you could see it offencive, my first impression wasn't a great one either, but then I thought of what they symbol actually means, not what it brings to mind. I could easily use a swastika as my avatar. before the Nazis used it, it was a symbol of hope, and good luck. I have seen a old peice of jewlery with a swastika placed in emeralds, would have been worn to church, etc. However the natzis currupted its meaning. The same is true with the Sickle and Hammer. I know it is hard, but try to think about what it really represents, not the crimes commited under its flag.
in regaurds to all the people talking about the US flag, etc. Yes, to true. Most of the time I can say that it was a symbol of the forces of good, think of WWI, WWI, the Gulf War, etc. Yet of course, that is not allways true. The Phillapine American war is IMO, the lowest point in american history. Vietnam...That list can go on as well. But remember, the same can be said for every nation on this planet.
I am all for freespeech, and under that, Konrad has my support just as Comm Simmonds and Jambo have my support to show a symbol that symbolizes the working class.
It raises an interesting point, evil manages to currupt everything, right down to a symbol of peace, hope, the people, and even animals. Think about it, the Eagle was used by so many civalizations, Rome, Nazis, USofA...and depending on its stance it brings completely different responces.
So Konrad, I encurage you to try to think not of the evil done under the symbol, but what the symbol actually stands for. [/B][/QUOTE]
First of all A2597, thank you for that, you're are completely correct. I really appreciate the fact that you raised these points.
Cheers!
[B]The Sickal and Hammer have nothing to do with Stalin and Lenin... The Sickal Represents the Famers, and the Hammer represents the Workers....
[/B][/QUOTE]
The Nazi symbol was originaly a cultural symbol representing good luck and strength, but because of those who used it as a symbol for hatred, oppresion, and genocide it now represents evil. Maybe the idea behind communism, and the flag raised by the soviet union had noble intentions, but due to the corruption of those intentions by people like Lennin, Stalin etc.. it will forever serve as a reminder of the killing and repression of millions of people.
You believe in Communism fine, its your right. You want to wave that flag fine, its also your right. But try to understand that most people when they see that hammer and sickel will not think happy utopian communism, they will think death, the destruction of individual identity, and the denial of the very rights you employ to express your views.
As for the U.S, our flag did preside over much death, and suffering, but overwhelmingly it has stood for freedom, and democracy above all else. The U.S has made mistakes, and commited crimes same as every other country on earth, but don't even attepmt to compare things like the American Revolution to the madness of people like Stalin, and what they did in the name of their twisted ideas about revolution.
Because of a couple of whiners on the [url=http://www.descentbb.net/]DBB[/url], we lost our sigs. All because one person had "JFC" in his signature. :rolleyes: I will not see that happen here because someone doesn't like a couple of things so they bawl their eyes out like a little baby. I got news for you buddy. In the real world, things aren't all fluffy like you see on Pleastantville or Happy Days. I will not see this place turn into a PC fanboy zone so suck it up Konrad. Its a big bad world out there so you're just going to have to get over it and move on.
[B]Hey...... Did'nt alot of ppl get Killed During the US Revulation...... [/B][/QUOTE]
only during the revolution, after that it wasnt so bad. (as long as you werent an indian)
If you beleve in the Uptopia on earth in startrek...
It should be Noted that is a Communisum
[B]On another note:
If you beleve in the Uptopia on earth in startrek...
It should be Noted that is a Communisum [/B][/QUOTE]
*cough* *cough*
Actualy the continuing presence of a governing higherarchy after the achievement of "utopia" suggests that it is not a Marxist system in the slightest, since despite how people want to put it, Marx did repeatedly say government would "wither away" While the UFP may be socialist, you find that there are rationing of certain things and some form of currency. Reference a certain episode where I believe Sisco, or someone else talks about his families "teleporter credits".
Frankly looking at the structures of the UFP, how it behaves and what it does, its more like a captalist system mutated into a socialist one because with the introduction of replication and efficient fusion, most everything became damn cheap.
That and Starfleet represents the existance of a privilidged elite, based on *GASP* Merit and moral fortitute! ;)
I am now changing my avatar to the symbol of an expansionist regime dedicated to conquest and oppression!
And they're honest about their intentions, too.
It would work, but only if people continued to work, unforutally, no one wants to work unless they get something, like money. Thus, it fails.
Also, one leader with absolute power is a bad Idea, as they say "Absolute power corrupts absolutly". I don't care what person you place in power, eventually they will relize they can do anything they please, with no repurcussions, then people like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, list goes on, are born. Its sad really, but such is human nature.