I've seen a review copy!
Here's the key additions to the already understood mythology:
Ellen Tigh is the daughter of an Admiral Calavicci, who was a member of the navy of one of Earth's nations. He ran several secret projects. One of these was Project Resurrection, the organic memory transfer used throughout the series by the Cylons. Another was a time travel experiment which he shared with a man named Sam (NOT Anders).
Sam invented a computer for his project named Cigge. Cigge was extremely useful for over a decade, but it eventually collapsed under the weight of its own genius and launched the nukes that caused Earth's holocaust. When Ellen was describing her father to the Cylon she would create in his image, she mentioned Cigge, and this was the catalyst that started him questioning his current role. Though the other Cylons have no knowledge of Cigge, finding the supercomputer (rumored to survive Earth's holocaust) has been his secret objective all along.
Fortunately for the crew of Galactica and for their foolhardy mission (where the episode picks up), the reason Cavil had not been able to find Cigge was not one of where, but of when - Sam's project had been a success, and Sam, Calavicci, and Cigge had been traveling through time ever since observing the cycle of time.
Cigge brings along another iteration of the Battlestar Galactica from earlier in the cycle. Among certain minor differences in the Battlestar's aesthetic design and the characteristics (though oddly, not names) of her crew is the laser weaponry which the Battlestar boasts. The displaced Battlestar defeats the Colony and its Base Stars, though our Galactica completely disabled. The second Galactica takes on our Galactica's role as protector and center of the RTF, and they ride off into the sunset together. Sam and Ciggie assure the humans and Cylons that Hera and other hybrids to come later were the key to ending the destructive cycle of time.
Clearly there are problems with the way they chose to end it. With viable time travel technology, the entire ensemble could travel back in time four years to prevent the holocaust. Kara would be reunited with Zak, Billy could be saved, as could Romo's cat, and Boxey could have a worthwhile role - the possibilities are endless. There's also the deus ex machina of the second battlestar appearing. While it fits into the mythology once things are explained, it's about as out of left field as Kara's miraculous and non-cylon resurrection (which is also explained as part of Sam's meddling with time - in addition, Baltar, Kara, and Caprica Six are also time travelers, and their "head characters" are manifestations of Ciggie sent to guide them).
[QUOTE=Sanfam;180266]But what purpose does it serve to demonstrate that ability with no benefit to the story? It's a pointless diversion emotional diversion with a penalty to several characters.[/QUOTE]
So I bet you're happy with how [i]that[/i] turned out, huh?
I dunno, i think i kind of didnt like it. I mean i was ok with a lot of it, but some felt very Deus Ex Machina to me, Spoiler: I did feel vindicated about it being earth in the past though, i said last season that when they finally got to earth it would be earth of the past, but the whole destroying of the fleet, and them disbanding and spreading over the planet, it just made me feel like i did a the beginning of Alien 3, when you find out that Newt and whats his name are dead, what was the point? They struggled for 4 years to keep the fleet together, to keep their way of life, and then at the end, Poof, they just give it all up. and what WAS Kara? an Angel? the same as Head 6 and Baltar? overall i liked it, but, i guess i just feel a little gipped I put the spoiler in because i dont know if we were going to make this a spoiler free thread or not. so just to be safe
It's not like i HATED it, in fact i rather liked a lot of it, it just felt somewhat empty, Granted, I can't think of any way they could have ended it that would have made me 100% happy. I think maybe i need more time to digest it.
Spoiler: The funny thing is, when Kara was inputting the jump coorinates, and talking about not being forgotten, i turned to my wife and said that Kara was going to be gone when the ship rematerialized after the jump, I was close, just jumped the gun a bit, and i almost think it would have been better if she had dissapeared then rather than on the planet
I found it good, sad, great, fulfulling, yet lingering.
Really there is only one outstanding "?" for me, though i'm sure it's supposed to be one of those "make up your own minds" type of things.
But who EXACTLY were the angels, and god? Are we supposed to know or have inferred a "true" identity to them? Or are they simply "angels of the force of god unknown?"
well i accidentally deleted my post on the other thread, so i'll remake it here.
I found it good, sad, great, fulfilling, and lingering.
I really only have one "?" left, though i'm sure it's to be one of those "make up your own minds" things.
But who EXACTLY are they angels, and god? Are we supposed to know or figured out, or inferred exactly who it is they are? Or are they simply just "agents of a higher power, a god unknown?"
[QUOTE=HuntSmacker;180369]Yeah, not knowing who / what the higher powers are does bother me a bit. Other than that, a fine wrap up to a wonderful series.[/QUOTE]
Yea see, that's my only lingering question, other than that all my questions were answered. I just want to know who those angels REALLY are, and who the higher power is.
As i said in the other thread, there was much about it that i actually did not like, The spent the last 4 years trying to stay together and keep their way of life going, and then at the end they just give it all up? what about "you shall know the truth" no we don't, there are still unanswered questions.
In general I enjoyed almost all of the finale, but there were definately bits that didnt seem right.
Ok, it's 150,000 years later, they have found Mitocondial Eve, so when did the centurions come back to eartha nd take away the other cylons, i'm pretty sure if they found fosselized Hera, they would have found fossilized Sixes and other models, unless they were no longer on the planet. and finding fossilized robots kinda has to make you wonder. what WAS Kara, and head baltar/six, Angels? that seems pretty weak to me.
now the good points...
Adama's end was perfect, finding his little piece of earth, and still talking to Laura after her death, was very well done. Six and Baltar ending up together and baltar FINALLY getting it, perfect. Even Tyrol going off on his own.
It was good but we were told all along that Ron D Moore had a story to tell and had his 4 years to tell it, JMS had his 5 years to tell B5, and when B5 ended you had a 5 year finished story, with BSG, i almost feel like he didn't finish telling us the story. (and i don't want to hear that "it's up to you to figure out how it ends/what else happened/what the other answers are" i find that to be a literary copout when someone has no idea how to finish their story)
And yea, they gave it up, they finally realized that in order to break the cycle, they had to give up precizely that which they were fighting to protect, they had to give up that which the survivors in the last cycle didn't on kobol, and submit to clean slate.
You don't find the bones of every person that lived 150,000 years ago. Even bones disentigrate over time. Circumstances were just right for hera's to remain intact. Perhaps god/higher power had a hand in that. But it's totally beleivable that X's bones could be found and Y and Z's not.
The centurians never came back. They went on to seek out their own destiny. Who knows if they found it. But ellen was right, the fact they were left to seek their own path was enough to end the cycle of violence with them.
As for Kara, i found out just about everything regarding her story that i wanted to. What was she? An Angel of God, just like head six. Only everyone could see her. Who brought her back? God/Higher power, as i always suspected. In hindsight we were practically slapped in the face with what she was almost from the moment she returned. Though i'm sure she didn't know she was one. There is obviously an afterlife in the BSG universe, where everyone lives on. God simply took kara on a little detour before she got there. Anders knew (once he was hybridized), after all, he told her he'd see her on the other side, because he knew she'd soon be there herself, as would he.
I do feel a little dissapointed we weren't told who EXACTLY the angels of god are, or the higher power itself is. I would have liked in the last scene for there to have been even a quick one liner to reveal who they are. To be honest i always had a feeling the show would end on the angels somehow discussing if they thought things would work this time, i just couldn't have imagined the exact circumstances. But i definately would have liked to have known for CERTAIN, who they are (besides "angels").
We also got the whole picture of "all of this has happened before, and will happen again". We know the entire cycle now, how often it's happened who knows, but this certainly isn't the first time there's been this 150,000 year jump. We know now the true story of kobol, and who the lords of kobol were.
Kobol, where the gods and man lived together, just like they did at the end of the show on new Earth. The decendants of the previous cycle found Kobol, as our guys found new Earth, and lived amoung the natives as our guys did. I suspect, however, they did not abandon their technology as our guys did, thus the story of living amoung the gods carried down through time on Kobol. And we know the rest of the cycle, all thats left is now OUR story, all of it has happened before, will WE let it happen again?
It's not that they gave it up per se, but how easily they gave it up, with no resistance.
As for the fossils, i know that not every fossil gets found, but either the cylons stayed, in which case there should be dozens if not hundreds of metal bits (we never did learn how many cylons stayed) or they had to leave on their own, we also already know the cylons live a very very long time, so are those models still walking around 150,000 years later?
Also, i am now UBERPISSED at Time Warner, as they quietly added Sci-Fi HD at some point over the past week, AND DIDNT TELL ANYONE, so i didnt notice until THIS FRAKKING MORNING that i could have watched last night in HD!
Spoiler: I think the ending would have been perfect if the Head Six and Baltar would've had their final conversation before vanishing from the heads of the actual Baltar and Six: If they'd cut it so that the credits would've started rolling after the scene with Adama and Roslin's grave. I'm not sure how you could've achieved that without making the ending illogical, but nevertheless.
I can see why they did it, though. This way you can cater to atheists and believers alike, nodding off Kara and Head 6 & Baltar as either angels of God or just a spin-off branch of the very same lot that has evolved so much further that they're just guiding their children that when they need it most, essentially when they're going through what they themselves did once upon a time. Or [instert your own opinion here]
"You know he doesn't like that name." is the ambiguous throw-in that justifies the last scene.
Overall, I liked it. Very, very much, although I would've preferred some editing towards the end. Didn't stop me from shedding tears, though. :)
[QUOTE=Entil'Zha;180375]It's not that they gave it up per se, but how easily they gave it up, with no resistance.[/quote]
They already did once before, on New Caprica, and New Caprica was a hellhole compared to Earth. The very fact that the planet was nice enough that they didn't have to all settle in one tiny barely-habitable river delta was probably a major selling point. Never mind that their ships and their society was falling apart. I doubt Galen and Lee were the only people to just strike out on their own.
[quote]As for the fossils, i know that not every fossil gets found, but either the cylons stayed, in which case there should be dozens if not hundreds of metal bits (we never did learn how many cylons stayed) or they had to leave on their own, we also already know the cylons live a very very long time, so are those models still walking around 150,000 years later?[/quote]
The Final Five definitely aged, and so did their predecessors on the cylon Earth. Even if the Colonial Cylons didn't, accident or illness would've thinned their numbers sooner or later.
Either way, remember the a humanoid cylon is pretty much impossible to distinguish between a kobollian human, without in-depth testing. I also suspect that the Cylons that settled on earth did, in fact, get frisky with the Colonials and, eventually, the natives, so Hera was not the only hybrid child.
There actually was some amazingly subtle evidence for this all the way back in "Epiphanies," where everyone was shocked that Hera had no antigens (i.e., type-O blood), which is the plurality in our modern earth. So, if we've all got a little bit of Cylon in us, we'd never even notice the trace silica pathways and other subtle signs of cylonhood in the cylon remains.
So I was right, the Earth they found before wasn't our Earth! :D
I thought it was a great ending and I don't mind at all that certain mystical elements weren't explained. We've seen that happen before, midichlorians anyone?
The human form Cylons don't have any synthetic components, no metal or anything like that in their bodies and as already pointed out it was very hard for the Colonials to identify Cylons with all their technology. How can modern day humanity be expected to tell the difference especially after 150,000 years of cross breeding with humans and Cylon?
Also did anyone notice the cameo by Ronald Moore at the end?
Comments
Here's the key additions to the already understood mythology:
Ellen Tigh is the daughter of an Admiral Calavicci, who was a member of the navy of one of Earth's nations. He ran several secret projects. One of these was Project Resurrection, the organic memory transfer used throughout the series by the Cylons. Another was a time travel experiment which he shared with a man named Sam (NOT Anders).
Sam invented a computer for his project named Cigge. Cigge was extremely useful for over a decade, but it eventually collapsed under the weight of its own genius and launched the nukes that caused Earth's holocaust. When Ellen was describing her father to the Cylon she would create in his image, she mentioned Cigge, and this was the catalyst that started him questioning his current role. Though the other Cylons have no knowledge of Cigge, finding the supercomputer (rumored to survive Earth's holocaust) has been his secret objective all along.
Fortunately for the crew of Galactica and for their foolhardy mission (where the episode picks up), the reason Cavil had not been able to find Cigge was not one of where, but of when - Sam's project had been a success, and Sam, Calavicci, and Cigge had been traveling through time ever since observing the cycle of time.
Cigge brings along another iteration of the Battlestar Galactica from earlier in the cycle. Among certain minor differences in the Battlestar's aesthetic design and the characteristics (though oddly, not names) of her crew is the laser weaponry which the Battlestar boasts. The displaced Battlestar defeats the Colony and its Base Stars, though our Galactica completely disabled. The second Galactica takes on our Galactica's role as protector and center of the RTF, and they ride off into the sunset together. Sam and Ciggie assure the humans and Cylons that Hera and other hybrids to come later were the key to ending the destructive cycle of time.
Clearly there are problems with the way they chose to end it. With viable time travel technology, the entire ensemble could travel back in time four years to prevent the holocaust. Kara would be reunited with Zak, Billy could be saved, as could Romo's cat, and Boxey could have a worthwhile role - the possibilities are endless. There's also the deus ex machina of the second battlestar appearing. While it fits into the mythology once things are explained, it's about as out of left field as Kara's miraculous and non-cylon resurrection (which is also explained as part of Sam's meddling with time - in addition, Baltar, Kara, and Caprica Six are also time travelers, and their "head characters" are manifestations of Ciggie sent to guide them).
Well what did you think???
Wonderful.
So I bet you're happy with how [i]that[/i] turned out, huh?
Spoiler: The funny thing is, when Kara was inputting the jump coorinates, and talking about not being forgotten, i turned to my wife and said that Kara was going to be gone when the ship rematerialized after the jump, I was close, just jumped the gun a bit, and i almost think it would have been better if she had dissapeared then rather than on the planet
Really there is only one outstanding "?" for me, though i'm sure it's supposed to be one of those "make up your own minds" type of things.
But who EXACTLY were the angels, and god? Are we supposed to know or have inferred a "true" identity to them? Or are they simply "angels of the force of god unknown?"
I found it good, sad, great, fulfilling, and lingering.
I really only have one "?" left, though i'm sure it's to be one of those "make up your own minds" things.
But who EXACTLY are they angels, and god? Are we supposed to know or figured out, or inferred exactly who it is they are? Or are they simply just "agents of a higher power, a god unknown?"
Agreed.
Dan came over and we watched it tonight....one of the densest scripts I've seen packed into 2 hours. Had a great time.
We were talking about FO earlier, and I thought i'd just chime in with a "hey."
"Hey!"
:vsmile:
-Rick
Yea see, that's my only lingering question, other than that all my questions were answered. I just want to know who those angels REALLY are, and who the higher power is.
In general I enjoyed almost all of the finale, but there were definately bits that didnt seem right.
Ok, it's 150,000 years later, they have found Mitocondial Eve, so when did the centurions come back to eartha nd take away the other cylons, i'm pretty sure if they found fosselized Hera, they would have found fossilized Sixes and other models, unless they were no longer on the planet. and finding fossilized robots kinda has to make you wonder. what WAS Kara, and head baltar/six, Angels? that seems pretty weak to me.
now the good points...
Adama's end was perfect, finding his little piece of earth, and still talking to Laura after her death, was very well done. Six and Baltar ending up together and baltar FINALLY getting it, perfect. Even Tyrol going off on his own.
It was good but we were told all along that Ron D Moore had a story to tell and had his 4 years to tell it, JMS had his 5 years to tell B5, and when B5 ended you had a 5 year finished story, with BSG, i almost feel like he didn't finish telling us the story. (and i don't want to hear that "it's up to you to figure out how it ends/what else happened/what the other answers are" i find that to be a literary copout when someone has no idea how to finish their story)
And yea, they gave it up, they finally realized that in order to break the cycle, they had to give up precizely that which they were fighting to protect, they had to give up that which the survivors in the last cycle didn't on kobol, and submit to clean slate.
You don't find the bones of every person that lived 150,000 years ago. Even bones disentigrate over time. Circumstances were just right for hera's to remain intact. Perhaps god/higher power had a hand in that. But it's totally beleivable that X's bones could be found and Y and Z's not.
The centurians never came back. They went on to seek out their own destiny. Who knows if they found it. But ellen was right, the fact they were left to seek their own path was enough to end the cycle of violence with them.
As for Kara, i found out just about everything regarding her story that i wanted to. What was she? An Angel of God, just like head six. Only everyone could see her. Who brought her back? God/Higher power, as i always suspected. In hindsight we were practically slapped in the face with what she was almost from the moment she returned. Though i'm sure she didn't know she was one. There is obviously an afterlife in the BSG universe, where everyone lives on. God simply took kara on a little detour before she got there. Anders knew (once he was hybridized), after all, he told her he'd see her on the other side, because he knew she'd soon be there herself, as would he.
I do feel a little dissapointed we weren't told who EXACTLY the angels of god are, or the higher power itself is. I would have liked in the last scene for there to have been even a quick one liner to reveal who they are. To be honest i always had a feeling the show would end on the angels somehow discussing if they thought things would work this time, i just couldn't have imagined the exact circumstances. But i definately would have liked to have known for CERTAIN, who they are (besides "angels").
We also got the whole picture of "all of this has happened before, and will happen again". We know the entire cycle now, how often it's happened who knows, but this certainly isn't the first time there's been this 150,000 year jump. We know now the true story of kobol, and who the lords of kobol were.
Kobol, where the gods and man lived together, just like they did at the end of the show on new Earth. The decendants of the previous cycle found Kobol, as our guys found new Earth, and lived amoung the natives as our guys did. I suspect, however, they did not abandon their technology as our guys did, thus the story of living amoung the gods carried down through time on Kobol. And we know the rest of the cycle, all thats left is now OUR story, all of it has happened before, will WE let it happen again?
Cue "All along the watchtower."
As for the fossils, i know that not every fossil gets found, but either the cylons stayed, in which case there should be dozens if not hundreds of metal bits (we never did learn how many cylons stayed) or they had to leave on their own, we also already know the cylons live a very very long time, so are those models still walking around 150,000 years later?
Also, i am now UBERPISSED at Time Warner, as they quietly added Sci-Fi HD at some point over the past week, AND DIDNT TELL ANYONE, so i didnt notice until THIS FRAKKING MORNING that i could have watched last night in HD!
I can see why they did it, though. This way you can cater to atheists and believers alike, nodding off Kara and Head 6 & Baltar as either angels of God or just a spin-off branch of the very same lot that has evolved so much further that they're just guiding their children that when they need it most, essentially when they're going through what they themselves did once upon a time. Or [instert your own opinion here]
"You know he doesn't like that name." is the ambiguous throw-in that justifies the last scene.
Overall, I liked it. Very, very much, although I would've preferred some editing towards the end. Didn't stop me from shedding tears, though. :)
They already did once before, on New Caprica, and New Caprica was a hellhole compared to Earth. The very fact that the planet was nice enough that they didn't have to all settle in one tiny barely-habitable river delta was probably a major selling point. Never mind that their ships and their society was falling apart. I doubt Galen and Lee were the only people to just strike out on their own.
[quote]As for the fossils, i know that not every fossil gets found, but either the cylons stayed, in which case there should be dozens if not hundreds of metal bits (we never did learn how many cylons stayed) or they had to leave on their own, we also already know the cylons live a very very long time, so are those models still walking around 150,000 years later?[/quote]
The Final Five definitely aged, and so did their predecessors on the cylon Earth. Even if the Colonial Cylons didn't, accident or illness would've thinned their numbers sooner or later.
Either way, remember the a humanoid cylon is pretty much impossible to distinguish between a kobollian human, without in-depth testing. I also suspect that the Cylons that settled on earth did, in fact, get frisky with the Colonials and, eventually, the natives, so Hera was not the only hybrid child.
There actually was some amazingly subtle evidence for this all the way back in "Epiphanies," where everyone was shocked that Hera had no antigens (i.e., type-O blood), which is the plurality in our modern earth. So, if we've all got a little bit of Cylon in us, we'd never even notice the trace silica pathways and other subtle signs of cylonhood in the cylon remains.
Psi-Killer, i think its like 740 something, it wasn't there last week, and it is now!
I thought it was a great ending and I don't mind at all that certain mystical elements weren't explained. We've seen that happen before, midichlorians anyone?
The human form Cylons don't have any synthetic components, no metal or anything like that in their bodies and as already pointed out it was very hard for the Colonials to identify Cylons with all their technology. How can modern day humanity be expected to tell the difference especially after 150,000 years of cross breeding with humans and Cylon?
Also did anyone notice the cameo by Ronald Moore at the end?
Worf