Spoiler: Every single action by Martha seems to be a forced attempt to nearly emulate a Doctor/Rose relationship in some way, or at least call it back purely for the "cutesy reference" factor for the viewers who *cough*callista :p*cough* miss having Rose around. Her purpose just seems insignificant and really hasn't managed to work out well in the grand scheme of things beyond her ability to magically deduce a solution given little to no evidence. It's as if they are attempting to create some form of dramatic tension while simultaneously creating some form of quasi-romantic relationship for the doc to experience again without actually doing such a thing.
There was just so much potential in these episodes. They could have been fantastic, but the writers gave the heroes too much strength.
How about this...why not try a *gasp* racial tension episode? Perhaps? There's only three hundred years of earth history in which that could be a viable subject...It's not as if we don't have a time machine in which to do it, either. She's the perfect companion for that type of story. Maybe it's cliched, but the idea is perfect for character development. Better than most of the running around arbitrarily that we've had so far. Though if the bludgeoning of the viewer (with huge, blatantly obvious plot elements and "twists") continues, I don't know if even a traditional story can offer hope.
I guess I'm just not much of an optimist in this sense. I've seen too many shows lose everything that made them fantastic because the writers became careless for whatever reason. Perhaps they were catering too strongly to the hardcore fans, or even a particular subset of the community, or even their own interests! It doesn't matter what the nationality is of the maker, because any writer of any country can easily produce a nice pile of crap.
So what I'm trying to say is...I hate it when shows fail at the most basic elements of common sense. When you have to ask yourself why a character did a ridiculously thing on a regular basis, there is a severe issue with the writing.
This is the word of Sanfam, hater of pointless and unnecessarily cute references to the past.
Edit: I think I'm going to be on the receiving end of a beating when SataiCallista returns :(
[QUOTE=Sanfam;159790]Edit: I think I'm going to be on the receiving end of a beating when SataiCallista returns :([/QUOTE]
I hate you :P
Fine, if the show annoys you that much, I'll just watch it by myself as I am thoroughly enjoying it. I'm serious here. It really annoys me when someone watches something with me and criticizes EVERYTHING. If you're finding that much to criticize about it then just leave it alone and let those of us who enjoy it watch it in peace.
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]sataicallista[/B]
Episode 5: [SPOILER]
I really enjoyed David's performance throughout, though what is up with the Doctor's death wish all of a sudden? Twice he dead seriously begged them to kill him. What do you think guys?[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]
Spoiler: I actually think that is a better way to express his loss of Rose rather than this whole crap with Martha...
I hope they think of some way to fix this... I'd really hate to see the rest of this series suck because of Martha...
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Spoiler: I absolutely agree. It works far, far better than trying to force another romance into it does. Martha would be a good, possibly great, companion if they stopped trying to use her solely as a rebound.
Spoiler: I don't think they are pushing for a romance with Martha. She obviously likes him a lot and sees some rebound issues, but I haven't seen any indication on his part that he's treating her differently than any other companion. This is a "we'll have to wait and see where they take this" thing.
[QUOTE=Biggles;159809] Spoiler: I absolutely agree. It works far, far better than trying to force another romance into it does. Martha would be a good, possibly great, companion if they stopped trying to use her solely as a rebound.[/QUOTE]
Spoiler: Ok, my prediction as of the present. I've avoided spoilers as best I can, and Biggles and I spoke of this a bit last night. My suspicion is that the only way for him to deal with his personal life is to lose the one thing limiting The Doctor from forming one: His status as a Timelord. In order for him to be able to deal with the situation the writers have kept pushing on the plot, the man must somehow lose his timelord abilities. I don't know how, or even if this is going to happen at all, but it seems like the only way to get things back to normal and solve this problem of artificial tension. Anyhoo, once human, the field would be wide open. He could attempt to level with Martha and make things right or whatever. I mean, they *could* simply settle things right now and keep his alien qualities, but for some reason the staff have settled on him having these long-lasting connections to the past that he simply won't drop. The question is, would Martha actually *be* the rebound relationship, or would it be better to have The Doctor come into contact with another character and reduce her role to "companion and friend" with no other ties? (As long as they settle on something, I'll be happy)
All Martha needs is some good attention to detail like she received in Smith and Jones. Fantastic development without the constant prodding at a potential relationship. Going back to the discussion Biggles and I had earlier, she has a remarkable mind that has gone untapped for far too long. Martha is written far too often as being a character with the traits of a bumbling fool. Biggles, I think your best example was how she ended up diving behind the dancers in the 'Manhattan' two-parter to get across the stage when she could have easily went behind the curtain. It's little careless things that amount to a shallow character.
On the upside, this episode pair is the only of this season as written by Helen Raynor, I think my concerns are going to be well handled. We're looking at a relative unknown next, followed by the Torchwood EP/Writer, and then five episodes of goodness. Smith and Jones was Davies, Gridlocked was Davies, and the last five are Paul Cornell and Davies.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE=sataicallista;159810] Spoiler: I don't think they are pushing for a romance with Martha. She obviously likes him a lot and sees some rebound issues, but I haven't seen any indication on his part that he's treating her differently than any other companion.[/QUOTE]
Spoiler: Not on his part, no. More on the part of the writers referencing it via "I like him but he doesn't like me/he's stuck in the past/similar" lines that Martha is constantly spouting, or other characters constantly asking "are you together?" (which then leads to the now-predictable answer from Martha). All this constant reiteration of a single point is making Martha into a character that's solely about unrequited feelings for the Doctor.
Well Davies rocks, cheers to getting rid of Helen Raynor!
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
Spoiler: Martha running on stage bothered me too, though i have to say I like her much more than i liked rose at the beginning of the first season. But her actions and behavior in these 2 eps definitely contradicted how she was portrayed in the first few episodes. In Smith and Jones she kept a cool head when she realized she was on the moon, and running out of air. Now she's a scared little girl.
I personally don't mind the unrequited love thing, as long as it's handled well.
I think my biggest problem with the two-parter is that at the end of episode 2 there was (at least for me) no sense of peril, no big surprise, nothing that let's you scream at the TV-schedule for making you wait a week for the conclusion...
Spoiler: I didn't mind the hints of romance with Rose, it kinda makes sense that the Doctor would become especially fond of her as she was the first friend he had since the Time Lords were destroyed.
Still, I'm not too fond of Martha's apparent crush on The Doctor. However, I do what I do with the parts of Star Wars that irritate me, ignore it and enjoy what I like about Doctor Who, I'm happier that way.
Episode 6 Spoiler: I enjoyed this episode, we're getting quite a bit of Saxon foreshadowing and wasn't that guy who approached Martha's mum in the fight club episode of Torchwood?. The experiment seemed very similiar to Time Lord regeneration, see speculation for more.
Grah, no episode next week thanks to the Eurovision Song Contest [IMG]http://www.bathtub-productions.com/smilies/greendalek.gif[/IMG][IMG]http://www.bathtub-productions.com/smilies/greendalek.gif[/IMG][IMG]http://www.bathtub-productions.com/smilies/greendalek.gif[/IMG]
Speculation about this episode Spoiler: I'm convinced more than ever that Mr Saxon is The Master, given his interest in the experiment (I suspect he was able to provide some of the information about the process) and his knowledge of The Doctor. Infact, Saxon's warning to Martha's mum is almost identical to one that The Master gives to the local people in one of the old episodes, The Mark of the Rani.
*is likewise annoyed by the two week break until episode 7*
Gah! Waiting ONE damn week is bad enough!!!!
Squee!!!! 30 more minutes until download is finished!!! *waits not quite so patiently*
Edit: Spoilers for ep 6 Spoiler: The only things that disappointed me here were first I thought Lazarus' changes between forms were a bit abrupt and illogical, especially at the end, but that's minor and I can basically ignore it, and two the Doctor didn't notice, or at least they didn't make a point of him noticing, the obviously Gallifreyan-like symbols that were everywhere. I hope they rectify that later. As to the guy being in Torchwood, I don't think so. He's on the Lazarus cast as Bertie Carvel and that name isn't in the credits for Combat, unless he was uncredited.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
Ep6: Spoiler: yep, that was much better than the dalek two-parter. And they let Martha use her brains again ;) I liked how when martha told the Doctor that he looked James-Bond-ish, the music mimiced the bond sound for a bit. I actually think i'm gonna have to watch it again...
The device could have been used (or maybe it will be used) to restore the master. It might be possible that he still is not able to regain human form again, and the machine could restore him, or that it resets his regenerations, so that he can regenerate again.
And while waiting sucks, at least we got an extended trailer at the end. With Captain Jack :D
Edit:
So having watched it a second time and refreshes my memory: Spoiler: I loved the Doctor's interaction with Martha's Mum. And loved the bit in the teaser "No, sorry. Did he say he was going to change what it means to be human?". I've tried to find the "Mysterious Man" in the background when the Doctor is introduced to Martha's family, as imho that's the only way he would "recognize" the doctor. But I couldn't find him. Maybe he was in a bit they cut out. But still i think this is something that should have been in there. One thing that really bothered me (it's just a small thing, but something that should NOT happen) is a bit of lazyness on the writer's part: When Lazarus escaped from the ambulance, the Doctor uses the Sonic Screwdriver to find him. It would have been much better for them to use their wits, for example:
The Doctor: He's still weakened from the sonic blast. He'll hide somewhere near that he feels is safe. Hm... If I was a big, life-sucking mutant, where would I feel safe?
Tish looks up, sees the tower of the Cathedral.
Tish: The Cathedral! It was used as a bomb-shelter when he was a kid.
And it's not much more timeconsuming of expensive than the Sonic Screwdriver scanning. Especially since they've set the cathedral up in two different dialogue scenes, i think the payoff would have been much greater. And there would have been a good reason for martha's sister to be there.
Other than that it's a great episode.
As for the Spoiler: gallifreyan symbols: I believe they are not. They are reminiscent, but i think it's the stylized logo of Lazarus' company/institute. If you look at the displays (especially in his office) You see an animation of sphere's that are moving in circle or a helix. Maybe it's not Lazarus'Symbol, but Mr. Saxon's... hm....
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
Ok, this get's a new post (I've edited the last one about 5 times with new comments):
I was just browsing the BBC gallery for images to use as Menu-backgrounds for DVDs i make for my sister (she's to stupid to get the episodes herself, and i can add the podcasts as second audio-tracks, which makes it easier for me to watch).
In the gallery for the last two-parter there is [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/gallery/s3_04-05gallery/1024/81.jpg"]this image[/URL]
That looks VERY VERY VERY VERY similar to what i was talking in my last post. look a this picture from yesterdays episode [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/gallery/s3_06gallery/1024/30.jpg"]this picture from yesterdays episode[/URL] (look at the monitors in the background)
I was (and still am) fairly satisfied with that episode. The Sonic Screwdriver was used for mostly rational things, and the few breaches of its functionality were not too entirely plot critical. Martha was no longer a drooling idiot, and the Doctor used most of his vast cognitive powers to achieve an actual goal.
The only point which I had some trouble with was (again) the drama. It didn't quite feel genuine for most of the sequences. I *knew* they (martha and sibling) were both going to survive for a while, though the rampant killing/human juicing later on made it a bit more interesting and made the situation feel more dire.
I also mirror most of SataiCallista's remarks.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Spoiler: I thought the drama in that episode was absolutely great. The interaction between the Doctor and Martha's mum was particularly entertaining, but it was also nice to see her siblings fleshed out some more.
Ep 6 [SPOILER] I thought this was WAAY better than the Manhattan episode. I really thought that that episode was a shame since I live (for the next week at least! :P) very close to Manhattan. However you could tell that this episode had to be a bridge between the terrible one and the new stuff to come. (I am also very annoyed I have to wait 2 weeks but it actually facilitates me moving so I'll deal :P)
The attitude that the Doctor and Martha had was way more relaxed this episode the tension that was there was semi natural.
I liked to see the Doctor-Martha's Mum drama but their whole goodbye things were a bit stretched- I thought he was going to give her a tardis key there, he gave one to Rose awfully early. The only thing I didn't like was that some guy, some random (?) guy from the street a) recognizes the Doctor and b) tells her Mum that he sucks- wtf was up with that?
Oh yeah- I am UBER excited to see Captain Jack- I *heart* Torchwood! [/SPOILER]
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
[QUOTE=Dax;160038]Ep 6 [SPOILER] The only thing I didn't like was that some guy, some random (?) guy from the street a) recognizes the Doctor and b) tells her Mum that he sucks- wtf was up with that?[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]
Spoiler: That guy obviously has some connection to Mr Saxon. Martha's Mum said so on the message she left on her machine at the end.
I see 2 possible explanations how he recognized the doctor:
1) he overheard him beeing introduced as "the doctor, just 'the doctor'."
2) The 10th doctor obviously is known to torchwood and UNIT, and the probably have photographs of him. If Mr. Saxon is as powerful and influential as it seems, he might have access to those documents.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Spoiler: He didn't necessarily have to overhear the Doctor being introduced. Martha and her mother both ran around yelling "Doctor!" at him, and it would be simple enough to put two and two together when witnessing his actions.
I found something to help with the lack of a new episode this week, it's the unaired pilot episode from 1963. Having watched it, I feel like starting from the beginning and seeing how it evolved over time...
Episode 7 Spoiler: I was right, it was real time so I think 42 is a 24 reference. The episode was pretty good but not quite as good as the earlier episodes of the third series. First thing: No Martha drooling over the Doctor! Second thing: they're really throwing the Saxon thing in our faces. I wonder what Martha's mum is going to think when we get to the series finale. Third thing: The Doctor tried to tell Martha about his ability to regenerate, I hope this isn't a reminder to fans that he can do it to prepare us for it happening soon. I did actually start to wonder if he was going to regenerate in this episode. That's all for now.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
7: Spoiler: It looked to me like the Saxon lackeys were trying to trace where/when Martha was calling from. Probably so Mr Saxon can find out where the Doctor is.
Comments
There was just so much potential in these episodes. They could have been fantastic, but the writers gave the heroes too much strength.
How about this...why not try a *gasp* racial tension episode? Perhaps? There's only three hundred years of earth history in which that could be a viable subject...It's not as if we don't have a time machine in which to do it, either. She's the perfect companion for that type of story. Maybe it's cliched, but the idea is perfect for character development. Better than most of the running around arbitrarily that we've had so far. Though if the bludgeoning of the viewer (with huge, blatantly obvious plot elements and "twists") continues, I don't know if even a traditional story can offer hope.
I guess I'm just not much of an optimist in this sense. I've seen too many shows lose everything that made them fantastic because the writers became careless for whatever reason. Perhaps they were catering too strongly to the hardcore fans, or even a particular subset of the community, or even their own interests! It doesn't matter what the nationality is of the maker, because any writer of any country can easily produce a nice pile of crap.
So what I'm trying to say is...I hate it when shows fail at the most basic elements of common sense. When you have to ask yourself why a character did a ridiculously thing on a regular basis, there is a severe issue with the writing.
This is the word of Sanfam, hater of pointless and unnecessarily cute references to the past.
Edit: I think I'm going to be on the receiving end of a beating when SataiCallista returns :(
I hate you :P
Fine, if the show annoys you that much, I'll just watch it by myself as I am thoroughly enjoying it. I'm serious here. It really annoys me when someone watches something with me and criticizes EVERYTHING. If you're finding that much to criticize about it then just leave it alone and let those of us who enjoy it watch it in peace.
Episode 5: [SPOILER]
I really enjoyed David's performance throughout, though what is up with the Doctor's death wish all of a sudden? Twice he dead seriously begged them to kill him. What do you think guys?[/SPOILER][/QUOTE]
Spoiler: I actually think that is a better way to express his loss of Rose rather than this whole crap with Martha...
I hope they think of some way to fix this... I'd really hate to see the rest of this series suck because of Martha...
Burned :(
[QUOTE=Biggles;159809] Spoiler: I absolutely agree. It works far, far better than trying to force another romance into it does. Martha would be a good, possibly great, companion if they stopped trying to use her solely as a rebound.[/QUOTE]
Spoiler: Ok, my prediction as of the present. I've avoided spoilers as best I can, and Biggles and I spoke of this a bit last night. My suspicion is that the only way for him to deal with his personal life is to lose the one thing limiting The Doctor from forming one: His status as a Timelord. In order for him to be able to deal with the situation the writers have kept pushing on the plot, the man must somehow lose his timelord abilities. I don't know how, or even if this is going to happen at all, but it seems like the only way to get things back to normal and solve this problem of artificial tension. Anyhoo, once human, the field would be wide open. He could attempt to level with Martha and make things right or whatever. I mean, they *could* simply settle things right now and keep his alien qualities, but for some reason the staff have settled on him having these long-lasting connections to the past that he simply won't drop. The question is, would Martha actually *be* the rebound relationship, or would it be better to have The Doctor come into contact with another character and reduce her role to "companion and friend" with no other ties? (As long as they settle on something, I'll be happy)
All Martha needs is some good attention to detail like she received in Smith and Jones. Fantastic development without the constant prodding at a potential relationship. Going back to the discussion Biggles and I had earlier, she has a remarkable mind that has gone untapped for far too long. Martha is written far too often as being a character with the traits of a bumbling fool. Biggles, I think your best example was how she ended up diving behind the dancers in the 'Manhattan' two-parter to get across the stage when she could have easily went behind the curtain. It's little careless things that amount to a shallow character.
On the upside, this episode pair is the only of this season as written by Helen Raynor, I think my concerns are going to be well handled. We're looking at a relative unknown next, followed by the Torchwood EP/Writer, and then five episodes of goodness. Smith and Jones was Davies, Gridlocked was Davies, and the last five are Paul Cornell and Davies.
Spoiler: Not on his part, no. More on the part of the writers referencing it via "I like him but he doesn't like me/he's stuck in the past/similar" lines that Martha is constantly spouting, or other characters constantly asking "are you together?" (which then leads to the now-predictable answer from Martha). All this constant reiteration of a single point is making Martha into a character that's solely about unrequited feelings for the Doctor.
I personally don't mind the unrequited love thing, as long as it's handled well.
I think my biggest problem with the two-parter is that at the end of episode 2 there was (at least for me) no sense of peril, no big surprise, nothing that let's you scream at the TV-schedule for making you wait a week for the conclusion...
Still, I'm not too fond of Martha's apparent crush on The Doctor. However, I do what I do with the parts of Star Wars that irritate me, ignore it and enjoy what I like about Doctor Who, I'm happier that way.
Worf
Dax: Yes he does! :D
Worf: That's exactly the way I look at it. :)
Grah, no episode next week thanks to the Eurovision Song Contest [IMG]http://www.bathtub-productions.com/smilies/greendalek.gif[/IMG][IMG]http://www.bathtub-productions.com/smilies/greendalek.gif[/IMG][IMG]http://www.bathtub-productions.com/smilies/greendalek.gif[/IMG]
Speculation about this episode Spoiler: I'm convinced more than ever that Mr Saxon is The Master, given his interest in the experiment (I suspect he was able to provide some of the information about the process) and his knowledge of The Doctor. Infact, Saxon's warning to Martha's mum is almost identical to one that The Master gives to the local people in one of the old episodes, The Mark of the Rani.
Gah! Waiting ONE damn week is bad enough!!!!
Squee!!!! 30 more minutes until download is finished!!! *waits not quite so patiently*
Edit: Spoilers for ep 6 Spoiler: The only things that disappointed me here were first I thought Lazarus' changes between forms were a bit abrupt and illogical, especially at the end, but that's minor and I can basically ignore it, and two the Doctor didn't notice, or at least they didn't make a point of him noticing, the obviously Gallifreyan-like symbols that were everywhere. I hope they rectify that later. As to the guy being in Torchwood, I don't think so. He's on the Lazarus cast as Bertie Carvel and that name isn't in the credits for Combat, unless he was uncredited.
The device could have been used (or maybe it will be used) to restore the master. It might be possible that he still is not able to regain human form again, and the machine could restore him, or that it resets his regenerations, so that he can regenerate again.
And while waiting sucks, at least we got an extended trailer at the end. With Captain Jack :D
Edit:
So having watched it a second time and refreshes my memory: Spoiler: I loved the Doctor's interaction with Martha's Mum. And loved the bit in the teaser "No, sorry. Did he say he was going to change what it means to be human?". I've tried to find the "Mysterious Man" in the background when the Doctor is introduced to Martha's family, as imho that's the only way he would "recognize" the doctor. But I couldn't find him. Maybe he was in a bit they cut out. But still i think this is something that should have been in there. One thing that really bothered me (it's just a small thing, but something that should NOT happen) is a bit of lazyness on the writer's part: When Lazarus escaped from the ambulance, the Doctor uses the Sonic Screwdriver to find him. It would have been much better for them to use their wits, for example:
The Doctor: He's still weakened from the sonic blast. He'll hide somewhere near that he feels is safe. Hm... If I was a big, life-sucking mutant, where would I feel safe?
Tish looks up, sees the tower of the Cathedral.
Tish: The Cathedral! It was used as a bomb-shelter when he was a kid.
And it's not much more timeconsuming of expensive than the Sonic Screwdriver scanning. Especially since they've set the cathedral up in two different dialogue scenes, i think the payoff would have been much greater. And there would have been a good reason for martha's sister to be there.
Other than that it's a great episode.
As for the Spoiler: gallifreyan symbols: I believe they are not. They are reminiscent, but i think it's the stylized logo of Lazarus' company/institute. If you look at the displays (especially in his office) You see an animation of sphere's that are moving in circle or a helix. Maybe it's not Lazarus'Symbol, but Mr. Saxon's... hm....
I was just browsing the BBC gallery for images to use as Menu-backgrounds for DVDs i make for my sister (she's to stupid to get the episodes herself, and i can add the podcasts as second audio-tracks, which makes it easier for me to watch).
In the gallery for the last two-parter there is [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/gallery/s3_04-05gallery/1024/81.jpg"]this image[/URL]
That looks VERY VERY VERY VERY similar to what i was talking in my last post. look a this picture from yesterdays episode [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/gallery/s3_06gallery/1024/30.jpg"]this picture from yesterdays episode[/URL] (look at the monitors in the background)
The only point which I had some trouble with was (again) the drama. It didn't quite feel genuine for most of the sequences. I *knew* they (martha and sibling) were both going to survive for a while, though the rampant killing/human juicing later on made it a bit more interesting and made the situation feel more dire.
I also mirror most of SataiCallista's remarks.
Ep 6 [SPOILER] I thought this was WAAY better than the Manhattan episode. I really thought that that episode was a shame since I live (for the next week at least! :P) very close to Manhattan. However you could tell that this episode had to be a bridge between the terrible one and the new stuff to come. (I am also very annoyed I have to wait 2 weeks but it actually facilitates me moving so I'll deal :P)
The attitude that the Doctor and Martha had was way more relaxed this episode the tension that was there was semi natural.
I liked to see the Doctor-Martha's Mum drama but their whole goodbye things were a bit stretched- I thought he was going to give her a tardis key there, he gave one to Rose awfully early. The only thing I didn't like was that some guy, some random (?) guy from the street a) recognizes the Doctor and b) tells her Mum that he sucks- wtf was up with that?
Oh yeah- I am UBER excited to see Captain Jack- I *heart* Torchwood! [/SPOILER]
Spoiler: That guy obviously has some connection to Mr Saxon. Martha's Mum said so on the message she left on her machine at the end.
I see 2 possible explanations how he recognized the doctor:
1) he overheard him beeing introduced as "the doctor, just 'the doctor'."
2) The 10th doctor obviously is known to torchwood and UNIT, and the probably have photographs of him. If Mr. Saxon is as powerful and influential as it seems, he might have access to those documents.
[URL="http://www.tv-links.co.uk/link.do/1/26/2966/20643/32448"]Link[/URL]
Worf
Spoiler: I think this episode is real time, so 42 is infact a reference to 24 not to the work of Douglas Adams, or possibly both.
Worf
Worf
And um Worf, is your spoiler for 6 or 7? Today's episode was 7.
Worf
Also, Martha is quite a screamer.